On two ends of the world..

[ris]

Me and my H have been together 2.5 years, married only 4 months. During all this time we have been in a long distance relationship. We have seen each other every 2-3 months and for a year of our R he was deployed to Iraq. That year has been very difficult for him and he didn't deal with being there too well - he was depressed for most of the time. I stood by him at all times, even though I was usually the outlet of his anger and frustrations when he couldn't cope. This is not to say I've been perfect because I have my faults, but I'm a very patient person and I've been there through times when a lot of people would throw in the towel. One thing I can say is that I never consciously pushed his buttons, I always tried to be understanding, not to cause frictions and cheer him up, though he would sometimes misconstrue it. We had periods when we fought a lot about nothing which I think was caused by the difficult situation he was in. But there were some issues that got cleared thanks to the fights we had. Because the situation was pushing us apart so much, the fact that we worked through it and made it out together (with 2 or 3 "breakups" that were taken back the next day) tied us together quite a lot.

We were unofficially engaged (I hate that expression, but that's how it worked out, his parents were iffy on the issue because he was just about to leave) before he went there and he proposed again (officially!) a month after coming back. Before that we had a conversation where he said he was kind of scared of the perspective of living together. That it wasn't the issue of commitment, but he had never lived with a girl before and was scared of the lifestyle change. To be fair, I sort of discounted that statement, as he wasn't really a social person, didn't enjoy going out with buddies much so it wasn't like he was giving up a crazy bachelor life for living with me... I understood the fear of something new, but was of opinion that he just imagines the worst option possible (he often does it, and it gets worse when he's in a more depressive state).

I decided to let him get used to the idea and didn't push for the wedding. Two months later he suggested that we get married the next time I come to see him and so we did. We never wanted to have a big wedding so it wasn't a problem - instead it was a very nice ceremony with just us and the parents. We talked briefly about the plan of me moving over but didn't decide on the timeline. Soon it turned out that my H was going overseas on a 2 year assignment and I was allowed to come with him. At first we were both very excited about it but when H found out more details about it, it turned out to be not exactly what he dreamed of (work and location wise) and his enthusiasm diminished and at times he was downright depressed about it.

Now let me just give you a little background here. Since coming back from Iraq, he was in a really low place. He hated his job, his boss, he was stressed out and overworked, had almost no friends. The only times when I could really see him being happy was when I came to see him, then we'd actually do things, meet up with people (work friends) that kept on trying to drag him out of the house on the weekends... When he was on his own, he sat at home all weekend, often getting drunk and hated it. His job was taking up most of the time during the week (I'm talking 12h+ days Mon-Fri) and consuming his life really. He even got a dog at some point because he just wanted to have some company, which kind of backfired because she ended up feeling like she was just another chore rather than cheering him up (for those worried about the dog, she's good now. My SIL has her and she's the happiest dog on Earth!).

Now this is getting long so I'll try to stay on track. H finished up his work in the old place, and was really down the whole time. Before he went overseas, he came to see me and we spent a week together. During that time we made plans of finally starting our life together. H was going to sort out paperwork after getting there so that I could come, he already took some of my stuff, part to leave with his parents until we come back and part to take with him there.

Once he got there, it was as if he fell off the face of the Earth. It took him a week to send me an email to say that he finally got there. Finally we got to talk and to my question why he hasn't written/called me he said "I had nothing to say to you". I suppressed the urge to scream and gently dug in deeper and it turned out he was down quite a bit. We started talking though. Finally he settled in a little bit and it got slightly better (for a week). Then it turned out that his new job was something opposite of what he wanted to do and really stressful to him. Numerous days I got emails where he was completely frustrated with work and it was all he was able to speak about. I tried to console him as much as I could in an email. It was really heartbreaking to me to see him so upset but not being able to do much about it. We also had fights about random things where he was just being hurtful to me for no reason. Gradually, the topic of me coming over became a point of contention as well. I tried not to bring it up for a while until the situation got better.

My breaking (sort of) point came when I sent him a flirty picture of me in my underwear and he replied and said he already saw me naked and my naked pictures and it wasn't interesting anymore so please stop wasting time with this. It hurt me really really bad. After a day of being shattered, I called my MIL for a chat because it always cheers me up. Well she asked me about H and I just burst out crying. I didn't tell her any details but I said that he was so hurtful to me, on so many topics and recently intimate issues. She knew about his depression highs and lows and she briefly knew about the things between me and H (She and I have a very good relationship and I sometimes find it soooo hard not to tell her things because she's very understanding to me). Later this evening I get an email from H saying that now that I dragged his family into this, it is over. He wants a marriage annulment or a divorce. It turned out that my MIL spoke to my FIL who became enraged about H's treatment and wrote him an email. It said that I called MIL crying and that the way he treated me was despicable and to get a grip on himself.

For 2 days all I could hear from H was to speak to a lawyer because he wants divorce so I stopped contacting him. A week later, I knew he was about to go to a training for a few weeks where we'd have no means of contact so I sent a businesslike email asking where we stand. The response was dry at best (pretty hurtful actually), but turned into a 2 day dialogue that eventually got better and we even exchanged "I love you" at the end. We resolved some of the problems he has with me coming over. He wanted to be able to go for vacation on his own if he wanted to do something I wasn't able to do - like demanding mountain climbs. Another issue was that we were getting much more money while living separate (over the course of time it turned out unlikely for me to be able to get a job where he is) so we agreed we would wait until the end of his training for doing the paperwork and that would give us 2 extra months of more money.

After he went to the training, it turned out that he had email access so we were able to email every day. There was another portion of frustrated with work emails, in reply to which I tried to cheer him up the best I could. At some point we were talking about trips we were going to make once I come over and his mountain climb he planned and he said "only the thought of you coming over and those trips keeps me going". When he came back, I sent him documents he needed to do the paperwork for me to come.

A day later H blew up. He said that our sex life was boring and that he wasn't attracted to me anymore. It started before he came to see me the last time and he didn't really want to have sex with me then. We had an indepth talk about this and it was really constructive. We finally openly got to the fact that the communication between us isn't as open as it should be. I blamed a lot of things on being apart (which I believe is a big factor). I said that I think that the fact he's depressed is making him see things in worse light than they really are. He sort of agreed. I said something that he wants a new thing (relationship) and thinks it will make things better and he said "I don't want a new relationship, I do love you and we're married" but that he doesn't think that we (specifically me) can actually change and be more open in communication. (This is a recurring topic and something I know we (I) need to work on. I'm very shy in personal matters, it's hard for me to open up and I shut down fast if the response isn't good. I think I need to try more but he needs to be more receptive to it). Then we had another talk about it and he was all "I don't believe that it can change". It went further downhill, he said he doesn't want me to come over there, he doesn't see any good things that would come out of it. According to him, it would be a constant fight, he's have to entertain me all the time and he'd just have another person to feed and support with only one income. I asked how can we make things better being apart and he said "it won't make things better but it will keep them from getting worse". Ugh worse? So I asked what is his plan for after he's done there (in 2 years) and he said "I don't care". The next day (yesterday) we talked again and he told me that he doesn't think this marriage is going to last long. I said that I want to give it my best chance because I love him and marriage is important to me. Then he said that I'm not coming there, so finally instead of arguing I said "Ok then."

Now I'm waiting for my book to arrive... I have to go now, but I'll add my thoughts about it later. Please any insight would be great. Ask any questions you have, I tried (key word being "tried") to be concise so it could be unclear somewhere.

[ris]

So, as promised, my thoughts.
Overall, even though it's somehow late, it doesn't seem to be that bad. I don't want to sound careless, but while I was waiting for my account to be validated, I read some stories and it seemed to me that ours is not so "advanced". We're still talking, there were no immediate demands of D (apart from the email bit, but I think that was an emotional reaction for the most part), he did say he loves me, though the no attraction part worries me and frankly it hurts. I don't know if I'm being naive, but I'm blaming it on other factors than just "the spark is gone". I think it's more of the fact that there are things that are suppressing it: the perspective of living together (oh, also I quote "the idea of having sex with only one person for the rest of my life". He says that "every man is scared of that"), stress, depression, well the boring sex (though I was told by my friend that there's really no such thing as boring sex between two people in love. Food for thought), other things I don't know about?

The bad part is that we're 10+ hours flight away from each other. I'm pretty sure I won't bump into him anywhere!

I haven't read the book yet, but reading the forum gave me a brief overview and I'm trying to GAL. I want do try 180 too, but I think I need more substantial information about it.

I have tried to come up with a list of his possible complaints about me and I did get a few but I'm drawing blanks. And it's not because I think I'm great, but I really try to do my best and it's hard for me to put a finger on what exactly annoys him... because I have best intentions but somehow it doesn't come across as that to him. So I need to figure out what he sees. There are also things that he either likes or not, depending on the situation. Just difficult to pinpoint. If someone has some tips on how to do this examination of my own behaviour, I'd be grateful!

Now, about the communication issues, which are in my opinion to blame for boring sex... I feel we don't really talk very openly about it. We do talk, but only about things that we know are "safe". It's much harder to bring up something that you don't know what the other person will think about. And here is where in my opinion being apart plays a big role. Once we feel safe enough to start being vulnerable like this, we have to part again.

Similarly, with regular communication - I am, well, an avoider. Hard to admit. But it's really hard for me to bring up subjects that will spark discontent and I only do it when I have to. Also, I don't like talking about negative things. I don't even let myself think about them. And certainly I don't like whining to my H about my bad day at work when I know his was 10 times worse... Is that really bad? How do I stop?

Also I made this little project for myself. I decided to try and tell H about how I feel, without first considering twice whether he will like it or not. So I took a notebook and I'm trying to make notes when I think of something pertinent. Saturday morning and Sunday morning I wrote him short emails about how I feel about communication, admitting that I avoid topics, etc. It was a small step for me.
Now I want to continue writing them, because before whenever I tried to be open, it didn't really get noticed and it fizzled. So I'm making it a point not to stop. The trouble is that I really need it to be a dialogue, because otherwise it will just either turn into a list of my complaints (since most of what I was withholding was negative things) or I'll just run out of material. Ideally, I would like it to turn into a constructive discussion. But I don't know. I'm afraid that I will run out of material anyway, because not every day a thing happens or a topic comes up that you can have a deep discussion about?
I also want to bring up R issues and from my readings of the forum it's not a good idea? I wanted to enquire deeper about the living together issue because I feel I don't get the bottom of it. Please advise!

Also, why do I feel like I have to make all these efforts to improve myself when clearly he has some work to do too? I just need a wise answer for this is that I can motivate myself!

[ris]

Yesterday I got an unexpected email from H. He said he just wanted to let me know that he read my journal I gave him (I wrote it for a few weeks when he was deployed, then I scanned it and sent to him but he never read it. Finally I gave him the original when I saw him the last time). He also mentioned a funny thing he found in it. Then he said he was thinking of going to a seminar that he was very much interested in. I wrote back that he should book it right now because they probably have limited places. So he went and signed up and then we talked (emailed) about it, he was extremely excited (going to it was one of his dreams). Then he went to sleep - it was late there.

Later I went for a Pilates class that I signed up for to start my GAL program. I told him about the class in my nightly email (I always write to say goodnight when I go to sleep) and he was happy that I went and asked about it. This morning I went to work and we continued emailing and got on the topic of the seminar. He has hopes it will help him to get into his dream job and we talked about it in depth. He said he was excited but scared a bit and I reassured him. He also mentioned that he wanted to save a trip he was planning to take shortly for when I get there, because he'd rather do it with me.

Then we talked about new equipment he wanted to buy and he said he didn't like the idea of getting into debt to get it.. but was very evasive when I asked him details. I decided that I should not be an avoider again and it was something he should tell me, so finally I said (nicely) that I think he could tell me how exactly the situation stands in terms of money he has and how much the new stuff was. He told me the situation in his account at the moment, but when I asked again about the new gear he said he'd rather keep it to himself and he "still isn't liking discussing finances with me". I tried not to blow up in response to this, so I took a few minutes and tried to collect my thoughts for a calm reply, but in the meantime he sent me another email saying he was going to sleep. He was overly sweet, called me "love" and wishing me a good day (no ILY though, haven't heard it for a while. I still say it). Maybe he felt his previous response was out of line?

To explain, we don't have joint account (yet? there was talk of it "once we live together") and we both have jobs so it's a sort of "his and her" money deal. I suppose it's ok for now. However, he's getting paid extra for the fact that we're separated and I do feel I have some right to that sum. However when he explained the state of his finances, he made it clear that this money was about to go towards his new purchase. I am planning to write him a short calm email explaining that I feel we should decide on that money together and I don't feel okay about him spending it without consulting with me, much less not wanting to tell me what it's going for. I think that this email will be another step in my Avoider Anonymous program.

Things are definitely much better, there are small mentions of me coming over, I'm not pursuing the subject. He definitely relies of my friendship and advice (for some things at least). I'd still love to hear some advice on going forward and not sliding back!

[ris]

Arghhh I feel like falling back in my old shoes. I want to write him that email about being unhappy with the money issue, but something stupid in my head whispers "why make waves now that things got better? It will just make us argue instead of making improvements". I can't think like this!

[eeyore_no_more]

Ris,

I'm sorry you're here. Know that you aren't alone. There are people who will help you get through this.

Your first instincts are probably going to be wrong. (I know mine were.) It is going to seem unnatural, but you should probably back off and give him some time to miss you. The more you pursue him right now, the faster he's going to run.

I'll write more later, but for now, here are some things to do while you're waiting for your DB book to arrive:


1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.

21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).

27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.

30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.

33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.


I'll check on your thread later tonight.

Take care,
Eeyore No More

[ris]

Thank you ENM!
I have selectively started to follow a lot of the above points (trying at least!) but there are a few that I take issue with. And I can already imagine people shaking their heads thinking "another one that thinks their situation is different" but I don't think it's really different, just not as much advanced. We're still very good friends during most times and I think it would feel artificial if I suddenly became distant or reserved. He would take it as me shutting down and not being open, which is one of our problems.

I just feel that some of these are for people on a different stage than we are. We talk (by email, nothing else is possible with the time arrangement, the only time we're awake at the same time is when I'm at work so we "chat" through emails then) almost every day and it's a two-sided conversation.

[ris]

Today I didn't get online until pretty late, it was unintentional, but H noticed. He asked me very intently why that was and when I told him I went out he further asked where... It made me chuckle. But I caved in a said for a walk.

However he also said that he was very proud of me for getting out of my comfort zone and going to the pilates class last night and I think it was genuine. He listened with interest when I told him about it. It was good.

[ris]

Last night before going to bed I wrote him an email about the separation money. I was sooo scared he wasn't going to like it! It was short and sweet, I calmly explained that I feel that this is money belongs to both of us, I feel we should be deciding on it together and I'm not okay with him spending it without discussing with me.

In the morning I found an email back and was stunned. H acknowledged and thanked me for bringing it up since it bothered me. He also explained in detail the financial situation he was in and asked whether I wanted to use that money for something (and if so, he was fine with me going ahead and using it) or what other idea I had.

We then discussed finances and it was amazing - we had a constructive conversation and made decisions together! He mentioned a few times the "once we live together" but still no steps towards that. But I'm letting him take his time with it and not pursuing. Then we had a nice chat about other things. I think my mistake was when I asked him how he was doing and how his work was and then saying that I care about it... He replied shortly that it was still stressful and he didn't enjoy it. I dropped the subject. After a while he asked how I was doing, not sure if he really was interested or was it just out of courtesy. I wanted to be sincere and open so possibly my answer was a bit too detailed. But then we continued talking and he seemed to be fairly engaged in conversation.

What do I do now? How do I keep this up??

[KellBell0820]

Ris,

I don't have any advice really, you know I'm new too. But I have to say our situations are somewhat similar. There is a lot of distance between me and H, although he's not overseas anymore, he's in NY while I'm in TN. We were talking, but it seems the more I try to talk to him the less he talks to me. I would say just keep doing what you think will take you foward. I see a lot of people here respond that you shouldn't act just to get a reaction and also that you shouldn't let emotions drive you. It seems you've been doing pretty good with those so far.

[ris]

Thank you for encouragement KellBell! I just sometimes don't know what I'm doing right, it just comes out somehow... And actually sometimes the same goes for doing wrong