In my opinion...true and unconditional love is not exemplified in the simple act of setting our spouse or loved-one free.
It is the act of helping them, and guiding them towards the path that is most conducive to their happiness, without any regard to what that means for us.
M: 29, W: 28 Together 8 years, Married 1 (5/16/09) Bomb (LYBNILWY)4/22/10 Affair discovered 5/3/10, began Jan/Feb 2010 Separated 5/22/10 - Present Affair exposed 7/7/10 No children
Even the most earnest of nature lovers who advocate setting animals found in the wild free will take them in and nurse them back to health.
These people will NOT set an animal free into the wild when it is NOT in a healthy state. They realize this is not love, it is wrecklessness.
Once you take your spouse into your life, you have a reponsability to them. If they are hurt, and worse in the midst of a sleazy affair, the last thing you want to do is turn your back on them. This is not love in that case, its self-preservation.
There is a time yes that one has to decide if this person will allow to be guided to a healthier place. One can only fight for so long.
Tossing something vulnerable back into the wild isn't an act of love, nor is tossing a marriage-damaged spouse back into the street.
You think it's wrong and destructive to her life, so you do everything in your power to influence her away from it. In your opinion its bad, and in her opinion it's good. Accepting the idea that it's not your right or responsibility to intervene on her behalf is crap to me.
An extreme situation certainly.
What if after everything you do to try to "correct" her doesn't work?
Originally Posted By: Mike
I love my wife unconditionally. To me, in my situation...that means I feel and have an obligation to steer her in a healthy direction, whether it results in the end of our marriage or not. Everything I do or say has her best interests in mind as much as my own.
Steer her to your belief of what is right for her.
Yes you have an obligation to correct your children.
Your W is not a child.
She may be behaving like one.
If you treat her like one you will not have a W for long.
And if that is acceptable to you then....
And
Look at your statement.
Your love is conditional.
Conditional on her behaving or conforming.
Your responsibility is to understand that you cannot control another and their choices...
Set boundaries for yourself and protect yourself.
Let her deal with the consequences of her choices.
Then
Have the courage to find what it means to really love your W
when she doesn't give you back what you want.
when she makes her own choices.
when she makes bad choices.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
Even the most earnest of nature lovers who advocate setting animals found in the wild free will take them in and nurse them back to health.
This presumes they want to accept help
and
...also presumes somewhat of a sanctimonious attitude that we know what's best for them.
I disagree. A drunk doesn't want help, we still help them, and it IS what's best for them.
For a period of time. At some point, as Allen himself says, you reach a point where you can't let the drowning person pull you under with them, but doing whatever you can to fight for your marriage, INCLUDING actively fighting the infidelity, is -- in my opinion -- the most compassionate thing you can do.
Like I said, I agree with a lot of your ideas, and even part of what you say about unconditional love.
I'm not saying I would stop loving my wife even if she did not accept my help and kept on her merry little way. I would love her whether she followed my guidance or not...I just gotta try to help to the best of my ability...for as long as I can handle the task personally.
If she totally blew me off and wanted no help from me, would I like it? No. Would I still love her? Yes.
At the point I realize she will not accept my help, when I know I've done all that I can for her...and I cannot continue to involve myself in her destructive behavior...That is the point I set her free with love in my heart.
Disappointment too? You bet. But I'll always love her.
M: 29, W: 28 Together 8 years, Married 1 (5/16/09) Bomb (LYBNILWY)4/22/10 Affair discovered 5/3/10, began Jan/Feb 2010 Separated 5/22/10 - Present Affair exposed 7/7/10 No children
I did talk about setting boundaries. That is helping them. I never said you just walk away.
There's a difference between setting boundaries and showing people how they are not being responsible and just walking away from them. I never stated once that you just turn your back.
Puppy, in your example of the drunk - I have a lot of experiences with drunks. If you look at a post I made above about my friend you will see I attempted to help him countless times. It's like talking to a brick wall, but I tried. There came a point where I had to turn my back on him. I left with the statement that when he is ready to do the work necessary to make his life better I will be there to help him.
With drunks, the best way to help them is to draw boundaries and stop enabling their behavior. Period. I went to AA and have been sober for over 22 years now. I have seen hundreds of alcoholics. They don't get it until they hit a bottom. The best way to help them is to help them reach that bottom as quick as possible. To accept their behavior and placate them is hurting them.
I fought for my marriage. I pointed out my W's issues - the drinking, the controlling behavior, the inability to accept responsibility for herself - our MC pointed it out, the Clinical Psychologist who did the forensic analysis pointed it out, our first and second MC pointed it out, I pointed it many times during our marriage and post bomb (after she actually said she wanted a D). She continues to deny them. In her mind, we are all wrong and she is right.
Those are seeds that are planted. I have no control over whether they grow or not. I put my a$$ out there knowing her resentment of me would grow every time I pointed them out. So be it. I did the right thing.
None of us can assume to know what path anyone should be on. I drank myself silly. People tried to help - they pointed it out many times. I was in denial. It wasn't until they got tough with me, stopped enabling that I was on my way to my 'bottom'. Once I hit that everything changed.
Think about this - if we never got the bomb, how many of us would actually be doing the work we do here? lol.
Sometimes backwards is forwards and forwards is backwards. You can never know - as far as I know no one can predict the future. We need to go through adversity in order to grow. Unfortunately it is a bigger motivator than wanting to improve without the pain.
Also, as truegritter pointed out, there is a big difference between a child and an adult. The child is your responsibility because they are not capable of taking care of themselves like an adult.
Another adult is not your responsibility. You are. You can never draw boundaries for someone else. You can only draw them for yourself. You also can never control anyone else unless they allow it.
In your example of the heroin addict - you can't draw a boundary for them stating they can never do heroin again. But you can't draw a boundary which says I will not allow you to do such and such with me because I find your use of heroine unacceptable. It's also your responsibility to shield your children from that person. As I will have to do with my W and her drinking.
How do I know if my W's drinking will bring her to her bottom where she will wake up, see everything 180 degrees different, then do the work on herself which then saves our M?
That's why I laugh at people's attempts to 'control and manipulate people into doing what they think is right. My experience shows my attempts to do this usually backfire and give me the opposite effect.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I disagree. A drunk doesn't want help, we still help them, and it IS what's best for them.
Define 'help'.
My definition:
You point out they have a drinking problem. You do an intervention with other people.(most often the deny and resent) You show them how their behavior is having a negative impact on you, your children, them, etc... (usually they don't want to hear this) You draw your boundaries and make it clear what is and is not acceptable to you. You enforce your boundaries. By doing this you stop enabling them. You detach from them and allow them to follow their path - interfering only when they cross the boundaries. Hopefully they will hit their bottom and come to see the light.
Isn't that what we do here Puppy? You see in the above case I never told them what is best for them. I addressed what is best for ME (including my children).
How would you know what is best for them? It's not humanly possible. You can only determine what you perceive as what is best for yourself because in reality you don't know. You do your best to take in all the information and make as best a decision as you can make. Sometimes you look back with hindsight and say you made a mistake and sometimes you look back and say you did the right thing. But always, you do what you do when you do it.
Isn't it obvious you want only the best for your child? To succeed at everything they do? This is what is 'best' for them. Do you think it's wise to shield your children from every mistake they could make? Set them up in an environment where they never make mistakes? Isn't it ultimately BEST for them to make mistakes?
Can you chose which mistakes they should and shouldn't make? (not including mistakes that will cause them or someone else physical harm or death - these are self obvious). Do you really know which mistakes will help them and which mistakes will hurt them?
MySitch Me-47 STBXW-41 D-5 S-8 ILYBNILWY-01/08 Want a D- 01/09 Physical Sep-01/10 D filed-06/10 Got 50% custody=09/11 Ride that wave!
true and unconditional love is not exemplified in the simple act of setting our spouse or loved-one free. It is the act of helping them, and guiding them towards the path that is most conducive to their happiness, without any regard to what that means for us.
I personally do not intend to take any of the concepts we have been discussing literally and/or out of context . But I still stand by what I have learned about “unconditional” which you also note above (bold) I do not believe that unconditional and setting them free/letting go are mutually exclusive. Letting go is as much about setting yourself free and stopping the self blame as it is about them. And, to me, it is certainly not abandoning them. That would be ME running away and turning my back on her. That is not me. That would be as reprehensible as what she is doing. See Allen’s quote below
Originally Posted By: Allen
Once you take your spouse into your life, you have a responsibility to them. If they are hurt, and worse in the midst of a sleazy affair, the last thing you want to do is turn your back on them. This is not love in that case, its self-preservation. Tossing something vulnerable back into the wild isn't an act of love, nor is tossing a marriage-damaged spouse back into the street.
For Better or worse trumps forsake all others. Her choice to “forsake me”enacts my “or worse”. And I take my vows seriously. How she sees hers doesn’t cancel mine, too. That would violate my beliefs and going against my values is partly how WE got to this sitch. I remain 50% responsible for the condition of the marriage when she made this choice. IMO, that DOES put some of the responsibility for her “state” when she made this choice. I’m not blaming myself for her choice, but I’d be irresponsible if I ignored my contribution. That SHE can’t or refuses to acknowledge HER contribution is moot at this point.
Originally Posted By: Allen
There is a time yes that one has to decide if this person will allow to be guided to a healthier place. One can only fight for so long.
PEA has an effective life of 6-18 months (if you’re fortunate and/or young). My W’s EA began around December. It went PA in April at the latest. She is currently in at least the 4th month of addiction. Based on the age of OM, and his M baggage, I really doubt the A will see 12 months total. Coincidentally, W’s 30th B’day will be around that time as well. And I know that will have an effect on her. I don’t know if that will help her see or cloud her more, but……
As far as “fighting”, the major exposure is over. Sure, there will be more people I tell it to over the course of time as I break the news that we are in the process “towards” divorce. My fighting at this point can only be NOT enabling the A (restricting her funds through financial separation); disregard and/or ‘Truth Darts’ if the A comes up in convo’s with her; and continuing to maintain the family home as well as extreme care for “our” daughter.
My analogy toward my M is more like our home. It is still here. Our stuff and I are still in it. The front door is closed. My D and I will live as normal life as possible and I will endeavor to get my pre-married life back. The only thing that will change our current situation is that SHE will have to approach the door and see if it’s locked. And then choose to walk way or come inside with us. It may even be locked by then. Will she knock? Is she THAT strong? But I will decide whether to unlock it.
Originally Posted By: TrueGritter
Have the courage to find what it means to really love your W when she doesn't give you back what you want. when she makes her own choices. when she makes bad choices.
And this is what we ALL agree on. It’s not about rubbing their noses in it; running away ourselves; abandoning them. Even RobX’s constant quoting of ‘why would you want to be with someone who doesn’t want you’ still works here. She doesn’t want to be with me right now (or perhaps ever). But that doesn’t stop me from doing what I want and upholding my commitment to my W and my vows. And eventually I will lock the door and probably move out of this “house”. But I was true to ME to the end.
And now I should read the 4 other responses that arrived while I was writing this.
And I cannot express how much I appreciate each and every one of you for participating in my thread. Your support; advice; wisdom and "lumber" are the reasons I am feeling quite calm despite discovering the A only 4 weeks ago. THAT event reframed everything that occurred since the bomb in late April. Considering all this, my sanity I owe to you.
Just a quick shout out...this thread and PDT/Sandi has helped me grow tremendously in the last month or so as our sitch's are all similar.
Originally Posted By: CD Bear
The only thing that will change our current situation is that SHE will have to approach the door and see if it’s locked. And then choose to walk away or come inside with us. It may even be locked by then. Will she knock? Is she THAT strong? But I will decide whether to unlock it.
Spot on CD and that's exactly where I'm at...light is still on but for how much longer...can't answer that today.
God Bless
M-43 FWW-42 T 20 M 16 DD10 DD8 EA: 1/10 Informal separation: 6/11/2010 Headed for D: 7/6/2010 Piecing? 9/10/10
My analogy toward my M is more like our home. It is still here. Our stuff and I are still in it. The front door is closed. My D and I will live as normal life as possible and I will endeavor to get my pre-married life back. The only thing that will change our current situation is that SHE will have to approach the door and see if it’s locked. And then choose to walk way or come inside with us. It may even be locked by then. Will she knock? Is she THAT strong? But I will decide whether to unlock it.
So, your love ISN'T unconditional is it?.. (good, it shouldn't be..)
Quote:
But I still stand by what I have learned about “unconditional” which you also note above (bold)
Quote:
It is the act of helping them, and guiding them towards the path that is most conducive to their happiness, without any regard to what that means for us.
Total nonsense. You guys need some serious man talk on this thread... You are sounding like a bunch of high school girls here... You are out of your mind if you for one second really believe that you can keep on giving love to a person without getting anything back in return and really really believe that you don't want or need anything back???
What planet are you living on guys? No wonder some of you are not going to get your WS back. If you keep believing that nonsense we can put you in the "I tried but we are now divorced category"
Stop fooling yourselves with this "unconditional" love nonsesnes and get back to reality... Women do NOT respect a man who acts and talks like you guys are talking and acting. You are the men that get the "he is such a nice guy, but I only want him as a friend."
Time to put some CONDITIONS on your love guys... My love IS conditional and I am proud of it. I can name a number of things that my wife could do that would be the start of divorce proceedings on my end.. One of them is having an affair. I don't share. She is wise to that condition of my love and agreed to it when we married.
Stop being so naive guys. Your love is NOT unconditional (and shouldn't be)and it is SMART to know and believe that.
