13...We have a problem (cont'd from Waiting...)

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Revised and extended remarks from "Waiting More Than a Dozen Years"

Yet, DLS is partly right--we are all 50% responsible for how our marriages turn out--it is never one spouse who creates an entire dynamic. Even when we think/say we want a particular thing in our marriage, if we don't have the guts to stand up and demand it, then how much do we really want it? You say you explicitly told your second wife you didn't want a sexless marriage--yet, she could probably tell on some level, either at that point or after the sex ended, that you too were not "being honest" about that, since 12 years later you haven't acted on your words.

Take the example of a woman who was beaten as a child by her father, and possibly a boyfriend or two, and marries a man she thinks is completely different, letting him know that she's escaping from a life where she would be beaten. Yet, often as not, a few years down the line she's being beaten by her H. Is she entirely a victim? The beatings, certainly, are not in any way her fault, and are reprehensible. Yet, until she grows up enough to demand more for herself, to be able to walk away from a codependant dynamic, and to grow healthier herself so that she is able to attract a healthier sort of partner, she is still 50% responsible for the kinds of situations she keeps finding herself in. Without realizing it, she's recreating the sort of dynamic that feels familiar.

Perhaps there are certain women who are afraid to admit they don't desire sex. But what is it about you that attracts them ... and what has twice attracted you to them?

To clarify, there was no "threat" associated with what I said I wanted in the marriage with regard to sex and how clearly I said it. Thus, there were no words for me to act on. This was not and "if, then" statement in terms of action and consequence. The desire for a sexually intimate relationship now is just as present as it was then (and just as honest). And while the "50% rule" might appear functional in most marriages, a single moment, phrase, or action by one might dictate the ways things will be from that moment on in the marriage.

And what I was really requesting was that she/we take a proactive role in setting aside time (and energy) for sexual intimacy. What I did say to her at the time was "if we had to wait until you were ready and in the mood, there would not be any sex!" It was said in the context that it was almost always me that initiated any foreplay or sexual overtures and that more and more often I was being turned away. Little did I realize how prescient I was in that statement.

What brought this all to a head was the "demand."

"NO means NO! Not yes, not maybe!" was the response I got.

Equally as important (and a recurring theme for her) is that "no man is going to tell her what to do." Or "better men than you have tried," though she has never said that to me. But those certainly were the two themes associated with her last husband.

Now, you asked what it is that attracts them to me. I believe that I provide them "safety" to be who they really are.

What attracted me to them? Well, I would tell you that the beginnings of the relationship were not nonsexual. Both of my relationships with my two wives were intensely sexual and intimate. To the point that I did not see this coming. Part of it, if not most of it, I attribute to hormonal issues that I never knew or anticipated could be as severe as they were.

Certainly, with my first wife I was fully unprepared for the sudden end to our sex lives when our son was born. We went from an anytime/anyplace type of sex-life that typified much of our relationship and marriage (even through pregnancy) to one where sexual intimacy of any type was very rare. The difference between one state and another occurred over a time period that can be measured in hours. On a Thursday night, three days before the projected due date, my very pregnant, full term wife was straddled over me having incredibly intense orgasms much as she had throughout much of the pregnancy. On Saturday morning, she was in labor and we went to the hospital. On Sunday morning, after 24 hours of labor, she had a C-section. She had no real desire for sex after that and we dutifully waited the full 6-weeks that her OB-GYN recommended for full healing. We tried sex again after he gave the all-clear but she was not really interested and it went nowhere. I did not pressure her and I told her that it was alright. We went 4 months from the time that of our last sexual encounter before our son's birth until we "successfully" were sexually intimate once again. But it was not easy, even with plenty of lubricant and the warm glow of the fire in our fireplace. And she was not interested in trying again for another 3 months and that was when we went away for a trip to Charleston, SC for some time to ourselves. But our sex life never recovered and just when it looked like it might be starting to reestablish itself, she got involved with someone else and had no interest in being sexually intimate with me again.

She would tell you, as she has told me, that she never expected motherhood (or the powerful forces of the hormones) to displace the love she said she felt for me before our son was born. Yet, she never felt that way about me again after he was born. She did not expect that, nor did I and there is no way I know of to prepare for that. She is, at least, honest about that now. Back then it was very painful to be "working things out" and having nothing to show for it.

As for my current wife, there were signs that her sexual interest in me was waning. But again, much of that seemed attributable to approaching menopause. And maybe most if not all of her lack of sexual interest in me is directly attributable to to all the medical conditions that led to her hysterectomy. At a higher level of thinking I can acknowledge that and yet it does little address my underlying desire for sexual intimacy.

It is a predicament that is not solvable by presenting a "demand."

Nor did I have any idea that things would turn out this way when we met and in the beginning when we were attracted to each other (and I say it has happened three times if I include my high school girlfriend for whom being sexual beyond a certain point made her uncomfortable to the point where she would just "freeze up." Years later, she would be caught in bed with another woman as her husband...not me...discovered that he was caught up in a lesbian/bisexual love triangle.).

But after three separate and different experiences that have had the same type of outcome (and I'm the only common denominator in all three), there has been this recurring thought that this is just the way it is for me and it will always be this way, NO MATTER WHAT. I think this thought scares me less than it scares my wife. But she is the only one who can choose to be sexual with me again (or not). And she is not willing to make that choice.

The Captain

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I recently returned from a trip to the US Pacific Northwest & to British Columbia. Although it was mostly a vacation, it's underlying purpose was to spread my mom's ashes (as she requested) along a portion of the Oregon Coast.

For the most part, it was a pleasant trip. There were no major disagreements worth noting as we often travel well together and it was mostly my trip to organize. We spent several days in Seattle and in Vancouver. Although we had been both places before, it had been a long time since we had been to Seattle and we had not spent much time in Vancouver, BC on our way to Alaska. While much of the US was sweltering in the summer heat, it was comfortably cool where we were.

Before heading down to the Oregon coast, we stopped and stayed at Mount Rainier (where we got married). While we had a pleasant time at the various sights and shared some marvelous meals during the trip, it was hardly a romantic get away even at the place where we got married. I did not expect it to be any other way and by having no expectations of romance, I also would not/could not be disappointed by it's absence.

No, it was more like two friends or roommates traveling together.

Three things were worth noting.

First, in contrast to people in our area, in a broad geographic sense, the people in this part of the US and BC were noticeably more fit and trim. I make the broader geographic reference because with the University just down the street from where I live, many of the students and people who work at the university aren't indicative of the physical fitness of the broader communities in the surrounding county or counties. In BC, I have not seen so much exposed skin (on people wearing clothes) since high school. The fitness (or lack thereof) are immediately evident under those circumstances. My Canadian friends have pointed out that when the sun is out, so is the skin. And I probably saw the best set of buns on a woman as I have ever seen on a hike up Queen Anne hill in Seattle.

That brings me to the second point; the difference in our physical capability and capacity are becoming very telling. Since April, I have been walking daily (first, about 8 miles per day and now over 10). As a result, I have dropped 28 pounds since the beginning of the year and the leading digit of my weight has changed. I can "hoof it" where my wife cannot and so more and more often, the distance between point A and point B and the effort it takes to move between two points becomes more and more an issue and consideration. While I had no real difficulty moving at 5400 feet above sea level, she was quickly winded "trying to keep up."

Finally, one moment can make all the difference. In my mom's case, it was a single day visit to this stretch of Oregon Beach on a trip where she traveled with me and my son almost 25 years ago to the day. As she told me a number of times, that day in that place was probably one of the best days of her life (and the reason that she wanted part of her ashes spread there).

One moment made a difference when my previous wife told me no to sex (ironically, when we were in Seattle shortly after her affair was revealed). I was determined that the pain of that experience was not going to take away the emotional connection that I developed with this part of the country. And one moment made a difference when my current wife made the same choice (though we were home in our kitchen when she made that choice).

But something else was also there for me when we were at Mount Rainier that was more than noting a sexless existence...it was a sense of connection to that place. Not of just having a life (or life having me) but a sense of actively being alive...something I have not really felt for some time.

The Captain

[stephenm]

Your words about being, feeling alive touched me. You have and are growing in amazing ways. I always feel "life" and connectedness in the Spearfish Canyon of the Black Hills of SD. Just breathing and engaging all of my senses brings me a sense of peace that no other place that I have been gives me. It's good to be refreshed. Blessings

[Young at Heart]

Mt Rainier on a sunny day is quite impressive.

I have been blessed by having been able to climb it when I was around 30 years old.

The Oregon coast can also be a truly remarkable area, especially down around Cannon Beach, Rockaway Beach and Florence.

There are moments in our life that define and change us. Thanks for sharing some of yours and your mothers.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

My own love affair with Mt Rainier began 30 years ago and I've seen it and been on it through different seasons and through its different weather. I've been well up its slopes to witness an aurora borealis above the clouds and the weather far below. One of my more memorable climbs was through rain (up to 6000), snow (above 6000), and then emerging above the clouds and the weather between 8500 and 9000 feet. The clouds rushing by with no sense of wind or sound and the clear blue sky and the fresh snow all the way to the summit....

My mom's ashes were spread at Cannon Beach, north of the Haystack Rock. My pictures of her, me, and my son on a cool and cloudy/foggy August day with Haystack Rock in the background were ones I recently found. The picture that hung in her bedroom of Cannon Beach (and now in my office) is from the Tilamook Head. Twenty five years ago, we did not stay there (just spent part of the day along the coast) but on this trip we spent the night before in Seaside.

As I said, one moment can make all the difference for some of us. My writing from that period was raw, open, and remarkably alive. I still see that in myself and how important it was in all of our lives. I'm glad I could share a few of mine with you.

The Captain