Once the dust settles and I know what's left to salvage I do have a lot of pent up strength and dreams to rebuild myself again- bigger, better and stronger. If the luck is with me I know I'll achieve my goals and dreams again.
haha, see there's hope for everyone, thanks Kerry!
Me: 35|WAW: 38|D: 6yo | http://tinyurl.com/2dxx7m6 Feb 2006, left, came back in two weeks Aug 2006, left again Apr 2007, filed for divorce Dec 2007, reunited Mar 2010, moved out, filed again
NM that is a GREAT idea but sadly it doesn't always work out that way.
As it stands right now, the legal bills my H and I incurred (he is ordered to pay via the courts) are well over 20K. It doesn't bother me a bit what the cost is since I won't be paying it EVER and he can't use legal bills as financial hardship. Thankfully in NY adultery is a crime so he has very little leverage and I have tons!
I am pretty sure CA is a community property state so Romeo's options are more limited than if he lived in a fault state.
When you DON'T live in a fault state you really have to find a very good attny to go around what is established. My first question would be why can she spend money to go out of town and on social escapades but can't contribute a reasonable amount to school? Push her in a corner and keep her there until she is ready to play your way. It's really pretty simple. The beauty of all of that is you don't have to do any dirty work, let your attny be the a-hole.
It is *very* painful to have to be a hard ass to somebody you once loved (or still love) deeply but when you reach a certain income level you have to when it comes to divorce and the numbers. And numbers are just that. As a random number somebody could make 15K a month after taxes but if there living expenses are 13K then there isn't much money to burn. And really, it's not about punishment it's about the LBS having to endure as little disruption a possible to their financial life and future as they have already endured enough emotionally. And for that sometimes you have to really take stances you don't want to take.
Romeo has the state laws against him, his gender against him and his earning power against him. Gotta find something to combat all that!
It is HORRIBLE and a terrible shame. It should be just like you said, I agree 10,000%.
Once a precedent is set it's hard to change it (as far as money goes) so that is why you have to play this smart now. My settlement period (almost 18 months) was so stressful I honestly thought about killing myself. To this day I still have blocked about huge chunks of those 18 months that are still too painful to even begin to process. I was so broken and battered I passed out in my attnys office during one terrible week of negotiations when the stress simply became unbearable to me. It seemed (and still does) so unfair my H could spend thousands of dollars each week on his mistress WHILE we were married and I was at my kitchen table counting my pills to decide what was more important.. meds for lupus or eating for three days. I would not wish it on my very worst enemy for anything. We are here for your Romeo.
IR, I had a bad feeling about the school thing. So sorry. I have to agree with City. If you just cave on this, she's going to feel empowered and keep coming back. Speak to your L about plugging the holes or you'll end up with nothing. You are going to have a future and you can't be penniless. Also, you're going to need money to spend on your D. Not just give to her mother to spend for you. Typically, time equals money. Go for more time with D. The temp support was based on her reports of your income. The actual support should be based on you true income. Make sure your L has an accurate view of your income.
And, why can't your L demand that she find something else. An IT manager can find something better than a front desk position. It feels like she's just using this to lower her income while cleaning you out. Then, suddenly after it's over she'll find a better opportunity.
CG, Blue thanks for your comments. Yes things have been pretty unfair from my point of view but the law thinks differently. The lawyers are fairly useless because they'd rather just go by the book. I guess once the final settlement stuff starts maybe there will be more room for negotiations but so far it's been pretty much by the book. This is not like CSI where they're finding clues and linking people to crimes etc. The reality is pretty anti-climatic. Now the school situation well I just read the OSC document that she filed with the court listing over two pages worth of points basically saying that DD has been going to private school since she was 2 years old. And that prior to the separation we were in agreement that she'll go to the private school due to the public school budget cuts. Then she alleges that she talked to me and that i was mad at her due to the temp support orders...we had no such conversation! she's good at telling white lies! She also said that she's offered to pay a larger portion of the tuition and I need to pay $x amount and if it's simply about the money then her offer should resolve the matter. Interesting how she thinks. If not then she wants the courts to decide what's best for DD.
I could take her to court and get it done, 90% chance that the court will order public school but who loses? not her, DD does. So I'll just have to eat this one too.
CG, what kind of a guy leaves a woman like you? your H is soooo stupid and this is totally his loss that's all I can say.
Quote:
It seemed (and still does) so unfair my H could spend thousands of dollars each week on his mistress WHILE we were married and I was at my kitchen table counting my pills to decide what was more important.. meds for lupus or eating for three days
I'm so sorry CG, that's horrible. Since we're talking about this stuff maybe I should mention a bit more because there's a lot of history there. Soon after the temp support- which was a major fiasco in itself and I'll get to it in a min, I came home from the court and that's when it hit me when I realized the amount of money I'd have to pay her. I couldn't believe that it actually happened. So I pull out my budget, expenses spreadsheets and I had major negative cashflow. Now mind you I live a pretty modest life, my two biggest 'variable' expenses are gas for the car due to so much commuting and food (because I skipped b.fast and ate lunch at work and we mostly used to eat dinner out too- while she was home all day). Anyway, after cutting out everything I possibly could including maximizing W2, cutting out the 401k etc I still have a negative cashflow. So I'm eating into my own half of the money I'll have. So the first few weeks I ate the cheapest lunch I could find, I even skipped dinners when DD wasn't with me. One night I was staring at the spreadsheet and I almost cried because I kept thinking to myself that for someone who makes a six figure salary shouldn't be skipping meals and not be able to afford a pair of jeans from Macys. Lately, I've started spending a bit more but it's always uncomfortable because I've never been in debt, always paid stuff with cash even when I was making $35k at my first job out of college.
But your situation sounds much worse that you were deciding between the pills and the food- I'm so sorry (((CG)))
Oh and the temp support fiasco....the evening before the trial my attorney and her's had reached an agreement at the 11th hour on the temp support- which I was OK with. My attorney said we just need to go to court to sign the docs and finalize it. So I take the day off, get there and waited. stbxw shows up a little late, comes right over as she didn't know where to go. I gave her a hug and we started talking and I told her it was nice we reached the agreement so we don't have to go through the courts and stuff. She looked at me surprised 'we reached an agreement?' I told her yeah her and my attorney did. She said she had no idea. Her attorney shows up an hour late! and claims there was no agreement and that she wasn't at work the day before and that she was at a spa blah blah so there was some misunderstanding. So then she goes and runs the disso numbers...my attorney gives her all my exact amounts and bam! the numbers are sky high and she wants me to continue paying DD's FULL tuition. So I told her no way and we went to the court room but the judge said she didn't have time until later that afternoon. So her attorney said 'what's the problem? my client's already said she's fine with paying half the tuition so why can't we make a deal?' both my attorney and I looked at eachother thinking is this lady on drugs or what? because she never told us that stbxw was ok with half the tuition that's why I went to court. Later I realized it was just a tactic to keep my mind off the other stuff. My attorney assured me the disso numbers were correct based on the info provided so I figure ok well if the software's taking into account my gross, mortgage etc then it must be right. It wasn't until I got home I realized the software suggested I claim 32 exemptions on my W2 to get to those numbers!! I was like WTF? with 32 exemptions surely my take home pay will be enough to make those numbers but IRS will ream me come tax time. No way no how those are correct. So further research shows that's typical of how people have been robbed in broad day light...it's like how can they get away with this and call this system legal? let alone fair?
Anyway...there's more but what's the point. Just hurts to even recall all this and I just wrote her the checks including the $49 ATT bill she wants me to pay.
Journaling wise...I got DD a 10gallon fish tank for her goldfish. I had second thoughts about spending the $60 on the starter kit but I managed to get everything separately for $43 - and it sucks because in the past I wouldn't have even given it a second thought. I guess it was too sad for me to see the poor fish trapped in a 6x6 inch container. DD and I had blast setting it up and the fish seemed so happy when we dropped it in. The tank has lights, decorations, filter etc we used some rocks and seashells DD had collected at the beach to decorate the tank. The goldfish is one happy camper swimming around all over as opposed to sitting in one spot waiting for its last breath to come.
G4, didn't send me any texts today so that was great. She sent me an email at 7:30pm saying that something she ordered on ebay was a scam so she now has to file a claim to get her money back. She asked me how my day was. I'll respond to her now before going to bed. Only got 4 hrs sleep last night so I'm feeling exhausted tonight.
Thanks guys have a great one.
Me: 35|WAW: 38|D: 6yo | http://tinyurl.com/2dxx7m6 Feb 2006, left, came back in two weeks Aug 2006, left again Apr 2007, filed for divorce Dec 2007, reunited Mar 2010, moved out, filed again
Resist the urge to try to punish STBX through the D, it won't work. Resist the urge to try to make her pay emotionally or financially for her sins. It won't work. A D is simply a BUSINESS arrangement. It does not right and of the wrongs, it is no reflection of who is right or wrong, especially in your state. It is a BUSINESS arrangement.
Also, try to feel like less of a victim and take a more objective look at things. The support money is largely child support, yes? What percentage is child support and what percentage is spousal support? Doesn't spousal support drop off at some point? Just try to keep in mind that it is not simply pocket money for STBXW. The net worth of the family to be divided is what you accrued TOGETHER as a family. You are not simply handing over half of what was solely yours.
I know it feels differently right now, but that's how it is. An L I saw once said that a D settlement isn't fair until both people feel screwed. It's very true.
Now, what to do about the $720/year. I thought that was the number between you and finalizing an agreement. If so, then it really is probably worth just agreeing and getting this done. Delaying things will quickly eat up that much money in legal fees for years to come, STBX will come up with more demands, etc... Just FINISH it.
However, if you are in the MIDDLE of negotiations, that's a different matter. And, I think maybe you need to take a fresh look at things. If you are worried about buying a pair of jeans, you are not rolling in dough. The economy is poor. Your earning potential may stagnate or drop.
This D radically changes your standard of living. Face that and accept it. DD's life will be different now. Trying to make private school a legal requirement is perhaps not well-advised. Don't base this on what is going on at the moment, where you live, what job you have, what school STBX might pick. All those things are variable. In the long run, it seems better to not have private tuition be a state dictate. Also, if STBX is willing to contribute to tuition, she will probably do it without being ordered to do so by the court. If she isn't, she'll probably find herself unable to contribute to tuition even if the court orders her to do so.
So, this is my advice, and here I agree with NM -- it is far better that you have the freedom to spend the income over what would be ordered by the court as you choose to benefit DD, using it for summer camp, private tuition, etc...
(1) Guarantee yourself the best financial arrangement possible. This is a business arrangement. Don't try to control STBX's parenting choices or punish her with it. Just make the best financial deal possible. My guess is this means that you STOP negotiations. CA law is pretty clear, yes? I don't think the court will approve you paying less in child/spousal support than is required by law. But as long as the court is not going to make you pay more than is legally required, then just go with the court-mandated division, WITHOUT private school.
(2) If negotiations over physical property aren't very easy, again, let the court dictate the division. For the most part, you'll find yourself wanting entirely new stuff anyway.
So, basically, quit messing around with this and accept the court-ordered minimums and make zero legal commitments beyond that. This way you retain financial control over any funds you might be willing to contribute to support DD.
And, how you want to spend such funds will change over time. Your priorities will shift. It is, for instance, probably more important that you be financially secure when you retire than that DD go to private school. You will likely remarry. You'll probably find it more important to have another child than to pay for ski trips for DD. There will be changing financial priorities that affect what your choices today would be. This would be the same whether or not you remained married, BTW. But, no doubt, the impact of the shifting priorities will be more greatly felt because there will be less moolah.
As for STBX's ongoing financial requests:
(1) Settle any bill that affects your credit, being sure to deduct the amount from your net worth. Be proactive about this.
(2) Deny optional requests for other money until you have a legal financial settlement in place. "I am not willing to pay for that now, but keep a list of your requests and the court can consider them at the time of settlement."
Oh, and here is something to check with your L about. It might not be a good idea to limit your spending so much right now. When I got D, XH and I both had 10-15K in outstanding individual debt. In court, these amounts offset each other. ALL that mattered was the amount of debt. Of course, my debt was all old JOINTLY accrued debt. XH's debt was all spending after separation for stuff for his GF (like a car...) Too bad, so sad, offsetting individual debt. I can see the same thing happening with you and STBX, so again, check with your L.
OT, that is good advice and I don't want to go into details of the case on a public forum because stbxw could be reading this- everyone wave hi to STBXW! lol.
Anyway...so I do want to clarify that there is no TOGETHER money in the literal terms here only in the legal sense. She didn't contribute even a cent to anything 'we' have in the savings and assets. When we got married I helped her pay off her credit card debt that she was burried in. I didn't have a lot of money but I had smarts and I tried to teach her. This is when we were making $40k and $60k. Fast forward a few years when she went from being an administrative assistant into IT because of my coaching her on it. She's sharp and a quick learner so she deserves a lot of credit there. Anyway she was making close to $70k at that point and then she decided to separate. During the separation she spent way too much 'can you say retail therapy?' of course I had no idea about it because I thought I'd taught her to not use credit cards. After we reconciled (and much heartbreak on my end over what she'd done during the separation) I found out that she not only didn't pay off her old student loans she took on almost $25k worth of credit card debt!! how the heck do you do that? I have no idea and don't want to know. So in keeping up with my 'give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime' philosophy I told her she'd have to find a way to pay off this debt on her own but I will help her with the strategy etc. She hardly showed any interest in it and a year later she got laid off. So my point is that while the law says anything we have in our savings and assets is TOGETHER money but technically it isn't. And we're not talking about a few thousand here. And that's what I find unfair including the spousal support. When you marry you get the benefits of being married when you divorce you should be allowed to go your separate ways. Yes the gender plays a big role in CA and she knows it she even made a comment to me early on in the process 'my such and such friend's husband spent $200k on lawyers and she still gets $6k per month from him'- nice! I'm sure there are high earner women too that probably pay the same price. I knew of a woman who's husband was a loser couldn't keep a job and when someone told her why don't you drop him like a bad habit she'd say 'yeah except legally I'd be even more screwed if I did' - I now understand what she meant.
OK so I'm thinking I have a couple of options:
1. dig in my heels and say if you want to be on my insurance then I'll have to drop it from PPO to HMO so I can pay the difference in the school costs.
2. Just let it go on both of these accounts 'be the bigger person'
Vote away!
Oh I forgot yesterday DD was so sensitive...don't know why it broke my heart. I was doing the dishes while I'd asked her to go get ready for bed. She came back to the kitchen a few mins later and hugged my leg and started sniffling. I picked her up and gave her hus and asked her what was the matter and she said crying 'I love you and mommy both' - I told her both mommy and I love her very much, more than anything in the world. She said she didn't want to turn 6 next week. I asked why not? she said she wanted to be 4 again so me and stbxw don't get old and die...awwwwwwwwwwww I told her we won't get old and die we'll be with her for a looooooong time. She said but she didn't want us to die ever. I didn't know what to say so I kinda lied and said 'we'll always be with you' thinking it's not really a lie if you could be with your loved ones in their hearts after you die. Poor thing, then when I was reading her the bedtime books she came down to lay with me on the floor and in trying to pass her the pillow I accidentally poked her eye with the book and she cried a lot again...I just sat there holding her and saying sorry. I also put the medicine she got for the wart she has on her finger which turned the wart and the surrounding skin green a few hours after applying it and she cried about that too 'why is my finger turning green?' I didn't know either but I told her it was normal...ugh.
Anyway, everything will be alright and DD and I will be fine- that's all that matters at this point.
Last edited by ImprovedRomeo; 07/30/1004:54 PM.
Me: 35|WAW: 38|D: 6yo | http://tinyurl.com/2dxx7m6 Feb 2006, left, came back in two weeks Aug 2006, left again Apr 2007, filed for divorce Dec 2007, reunited Mar 2010, moved out, filed again
I like what OT said above..."a divorce settlement isn't fair until both people feel screwed."
I think there's some truth to that, at least for people who aren't mega-wealthy. Get the absolute best financial settlement that you can...period...and don't look at that as being 'punishing' to STBXW.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.
My suggestion would be to keep the VERY BEST health insurance plan you can no matter what. I have an amazing insurance plan and while my medical expenses are certainly not the usual I still pay a substantial portion each month out of pocket. IMO that is not something you should change in order to pay for something else.
I don't see this as any sort of punishment. Your W had the luxury of being home after being laid off and being supported financially. She had her credit cards paid off by you and now has run them up again. Her choices, both financially and in life have not exhibited a whole lot of responsibility. That's fine, her choice but Romeo should not have to fund her irresponsible choices.
If I understand CA law correctly for a spouse who earns much less Romeo's W will have spousal support until she marries again or dies. Also, "Miss Romeo" will be entitled to Romeo's social security benefits if she never remarries even if Romeo does. Seeing how his self funded retirement plan is already on the table that is a scary thought. There is also the real estate settlement she will get, retirement and other assets to divide.
Seeing her inability to commit to a R he could be paying spousal support for decades to come even if he has another family to support. Factor in child support and expenses such as college for his daughter and you are looking at years of financial struggle for a man that only wanted to provide for his family in the best way.
A certain aspect of divorce is all about the numbers but if you are only going to talk numbers then look at it as a business person would. There is no such thing as "something for nothing" in business.
When somebody is getting thousands per month is support asking for additional funds to pay a 50.00 phone bill speaks volumes.
