A new day ... or something equally cliche ....

[PEI]

Yep....that damn fixer in me! Fu*k I still need to work on that.

LMAO

[LanceSijan]

I think this whole debate comes down to a fundamental way that we give advice on MLC vs newcomers. The idea here is to outlast your spouses MLC, and in the process improve yourself. To STAND for your marriage and not do anything that will close the door until you are ready to make that decision. Looking at MLC as a mental illness(depression) rather than a conscious decision by our spouses to leave, that was made years ago and they just failed to act upon this until now.

I for one, will support anyone and what their decision is, however I might challenge them and make sure that they are doing it from a point of knowledge.

PEI asked me to read her thread.
I did, and gave her my opinion.
She doesn't have to follow what I think
and what has worked for me.

Really my thoughts are that we are all not that far apart at what we are discussing.

PDT - I have a question for you.
I just read two books by DR. Willard Harley
"His needs , her needs" & "Fall in Love, Stay in Love".
Is this the same author that you quote from?
Just curious?

[Puppy Dog Tails]

PDT - I have a question for you.
I just read two books by DR. Willard Harley
"His needs , her needs" & "Fall in Love, Stay in Love".
Is this the same author that you quote from?
Just curious?

Yes. My advice on infidelity is drawn heavily from Harley, Glass, Tupy, McGraw, Dobson and Spring.

Puppy

[PEI]

I also believe that it is a process to get to this understanding and is what I believe is part of healing and growth.

So yes one may need boundaries until this happens. BUT

When it happens maybe you don't need them anymore???

I'm gonna have to say I disagree with you here Grit. I think boundaries are a healthy part of any healthy relationship and learning to properly execute them is part of the journey. I would hazard a guess that most of us who found ourselves here were not good with boundaries ... with our spouses, familes, extended families, friends etc. I know I wasn't. IMO, a lack of boundaries shows a lack of self respect, or at least it did for me.

Someone hurt me do I

1) Run away and call it healhy
2) Stay and face my fears

So very black and white today Grit .... there really is a third option IMO, to stick with the format from earlier let's call it 1.5) lovingly detach, have compassion and set a boundary. Boundaries ... compassion ... loving detachment ... none of these are mutually exclusive. Stay and face my fears? How does letting someone continue to behave disrespectfully towards you help you face your fears?

I agree with you in that this process needs to begin with Standing for your marriage in order to discover the strength and courage inside oneself that is necessary for growth and healing. Some marriages will be saved along the path, some will not, but the ultimate goal is truly saving oneself and I think we all agree on that. We just have slightly different beliefs about what may help us get there.

It is healthy to recognize that you cannot control others.

What others choose to do they do to themselves.

Ultimately, what they choose to do can have very real consequences for someone else. Physical, financial, etc. Emotionally we can and should detach, and that detachment will protect us, but I maintain that sometimes we need to set healthy boundaries and not accept/tolerate certain behaviours.

FTR, I believe that boundaries should only be set when you are ready, willing and able to enforce and accept the consequences
of setting said boundary. And yes, especially when dealing with MLCers, they need to be set without an expectation of producing a certain result. I agree that boundaries and MLC is tricky ground.

I also believe that there is a difference between WAS and MLC. Ultimately I believe that the advice given over here, to work on oneself and grow and learn and heal, is the the right advice for anyone at any time.

You can only control how you react to them.

Once you learn that then you are on your way to being healthy and free

... and guess what?

You don't have to walk around scared about the next time someone "harms" you and you have to

Run away...

Again.

Absolutely. Setting boundaries is in fact a choice one makes about how to react to someone.

If I know that "letting" someone behave in a certain manner towards me makes me "feel hurt, etc" then I can CHOOSE to no longer tolerate that behaviour. This, IMO, is not an attempt to control someone else but actually taking control of ones own emotional health and taking responsibility. I have set a boundary. I have not run away, I am no longer scared. I controlled myself and what I would and would not allow.

Crap, I'm tired ... I'm all over the f'in map ... I'm going to post and then revisit tomorrow ...

Peace
PEI

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I dunno, it made perfect sense, to me!

Puppy

[Truegritter]

I know I wasn't. IMO, a lack of boundaries shows a lack of self respect, or at least it did for me.

I look at boundaries as tools to help you down the path. When you first started standing you may not have realized why. You hurt. You start down the path. Part of that is detaching. Detaching in itself is a boundary. You may have to go so far as having no contact for a while (another boundary) Then through the process when you have gotten yourself away from the source causing you pain.

You realize that you control yourself and you do not have to be a victim of someone elses choices or behaviors.

As I have always said this is a process. So until you reach a point of healing and understanding then yes maybe boundaries are necessary. I am NOT saying you go through life letting people walk all over you. Quite the opposite.

What you may have allowed as your old self you will not allow as your new because you have learned your self respect lies within you.

Self respect is NOT given to you by another. You have to nurture it yourself so by definition it does not depend on another.

there really is a third option IMO, to stick with the format from earlier let's call it 1.5) lovingly detach, have compassion and set a boundary. Boundaries ... compassion ... loving detachment ... none of these are mutually exclusive. Stay and face my fears? How does letting someone continue to behave disrespectfully towards you help you face your fears?

I was responding to Time when I said this and in context I mean when you get here you have a choice to make.

Run away (leave your M)

Or

Stand and fight

The latter being a process I have described on my thread and my posts here.

Leaving you confirm you are a victim and you give your power and your self repsect away. IMO.

Staying takes courage. Walking the path takes courage. And in my opnion you only learn these things by walking this path and experiencing it through your trials.

Which choice takes more courage and which leads to greater self respect, honor and integrity?

Ultimately, what they choose to do can have very real consequences for someone else. Physical, financial, etc. Emotionally we can and should detach, and that detachment will protect us, but I maintain that sometimes we need to set healthy boundaries and not accept/tolerate certain behaviours.

Totally agree with this and I don't think my post said that I don't. We (and I) say you protect yourself physically, financially and emotionally first. I would never advise otherwise.

My point is when you decide to heal and gain the understanding that allows you to accept and forgive the actions of another then you can do that. Then you are free from the pain those actions caused you.

If I know that "letting" someone behave in a certain manner towards me makes me "feel hurt, etc" then I can CHOOSE to no longer tolerate that behaviour. This, IMO, is not an attempt to control someone else but actually taking control of ones own emotional health and taking responsibility. I have set a boundary. I have not run away, I am no longer scared. I controlled myself and what I would and would not allow.

Yup.

Look there comes a day that WHEN your spouse is healthy (and you may not want to wait for this because it may never happen) THEN you see the person for who they are and you decide maybe

hey this isn't someone I really want to be around.

Hopefully you have done your own work and make that choice from a place of compassion and loving detachment.

To get there is a lot of work that most people don't have the patience or fortitude for. Statistics would bear this out and I am one of those statistics already.

This is tough road but if you choose it there is an amazing discovery down the path.

And you only get there by walking it step by step.

[punkin]

Very serious stuff guys. Makes me think of that Jimmy Durante Standard "Should I stay or should I go". Lots of times I feel as flip-floppy as that song, not that I every SHOW that to other people. It does make for good political argument though. What works for one doesn't always work for all.

Perhaps we could have delegates elected? NAW, you see where that's gotten us today. (Joke)

Really, I've enjoyed the back and forth here. Keep it up.

[cat04]

I look at boundaries as tools to help you down the path.

Grit,

Boundaries are tools that help you down the path, the path of life, not just the path of standing.

Run away (leave your M)

Or

Stand and fight...


...Leaving you confirm you are a victim and you give your power and your self repsect away. IMO...

...Which choice takes more courage and which leads to greater self respect, honor and integrity?

Listen Grit, you said all of the stuff I quoted.

Let me ask you something...

I stood, for a very long time, I still stand for me...

I did, however, reach my breaking point for my M. It was a boundary. Not a spoken one, one that I don't know that I was really consciously aware of, until I reached it.

I stood through women, emotional abuse, phyical abuse of myself, degrading words, and horrible actions. This was on and off since 1998. None of it was ever enough to make me walk away. One thing was. He hit my S. Out of anger. Anger at me, that he took out where he knew it would hurt me the most.

For me, it was one action, one day. I fought myself for a long time. I actually began posting again after that because I was looking for a reason to continue standing. Trying to convince myself...

What I realized while I was posting, was that I was moving away from standing for the M and learning how to stand for MYSELF.

That took more courage and strength than anything else I had done or been through in all of the years previous.

I do not have anger or unforgivness for my H. It is completely the opposite. I love him still. I always will. I hope that he can get himself together, to a better place for him.

So did I "run away" and not face my fears?

Did I not stand and fight long enough?

Did I confirm myself as a victim?

Did I give away my self respect or did I find it?

You really are looking at this as black and white...

It isn't, and boundaries are as much for those that are strong as those that are getting stronger...

They are a necessary part of life.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Run away (leave your M)

Or

Stand and fight

The latter being a process I have described on my thread and my posts here.

Leaving you confirm you are a victim and you give your power and your self repsect away. IMO.

Staying takes courage. Walking the path takes courage. And in my opnion you only learn these things by walking this path and experiencing it through your trials.

TG, while I agree with your statements above in a LOT of instances, I also think every situation is different. I counsel a lot of Newbies, and a lot over in the Infidelity forum, as you know. And for every one that I can point to that do run away out of fear, I can point to one or two more than STAY because of fear. There are SO many that I counsel, who walk around every day in absolute fear of their spouse, of making them angry, of "pushing them away," that they allow their family to continue to be subjected to infidelity, neglect, emotional abuse, financial loss, mental anguish -- and worse.

I just don't think you can generalize and say that "deciding to leave" is a sign of fearfulness, and deciding to stand is a sign of courage. My experience has been that sometimes it's precisely the other way around.

Puppy

[TimeHeals]

boundaries are as much for those that are strong as those that are getting stronger...

They are a necessary part of life.

Agree. Show me a person with poor boundaries (no such thing as somebody with "no boundaries" in my experience), and I'll show you somebody that lets predators into their life and who is continually victimized.

At some point, doing what is right and standing up for how you want to treat people and how you want to be treated is neccessary.