The feelings of a violated and betrayed spouse should be a LOT more important than his need to socialize with women in private.
If he can't GET THAT.. Then you have a SERIOUS red light there on his ability to meet your needs long term in this marriage... He is wiling to make compromises that are to your disadvantage here... HUGE RED LIGHT about his ability to be a man and a husband.
Even if he gives in at this point I am worried. He clearly doens't GET IT.
Better question. Are all these "people" he's consulting fully informed on his history or is he keeping that a secret?
They all are now...
In fact, shortly after he confessed both EA's to his parents, his mom told him that she "just wants him to be happy, whatever that takes". And both of his parents told him that they thought he should still be able to be friends with OW. They apparently said they didn't really see it as an infidelity so much, and more that DH messed up because he lied to me and hid his "friendship" with her from me... DH assures me he knows that, despite what they said, it was an affair.
I really appreciate your guidelines on what to say. I think that's where I struggle. I think I know, deep down, what I need to do. But I'm trying to break out of years of old patterns that obviously didn't work. I spent years fighting with him for protection and safety in our relationship after the first affair and being met with resistance, blameshifting, and gaslighting. I'd try to set boundaries, but he'd always throw it back at me like I was going overboard. So now I have to figure out how to ask for the things I've been asking for all along, but in a completely new way -- and for that I'm starting from scratch.
I think I fear that it's going to damage the good progress we have made on some fronts (and erase the goodwill, positive communication, and loving feelings that we've been fostering), and send us back to fighting, him withdrawing because he feels attacked/controlled, and essentially ending up where we were before. I do know, however, that if we don't set solid boundaries this WILL happen again, and I don't want that either!
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
You have this idea that he's doing YOU a favour by staying with you instead of leaving... He's not.. YOU are forgiving HIM...
More to the point of his references :
a. They are uneducated - even your H admits they don't recognize the risks he took with his marriage b. They are inexperienced - they likley haven't dealt with infidelity themselves c. I strongly suspect ALL of his references that support his risk taking are NOT educated about infidelity OR experienced with it, and may even have a "rose-coloured" version of his affair(s)
These are NOT informed subjects to consult. Have him ask a family therapist who deals with infidelity cases on a DAILY BASIS what THEY think...
Or to put it more technically... I don't ask my friends and my family if my car is safe to drive, I take it to a LICENSED MECHANIC...
Are you two in family therapy? It's not in your signature so I assume not. THAT is a valid refrence. NOT mommy and daddy.
Do you understand what I am saying here?
I had a Girlfriend in University who used to do this. We would have a dispute and she would immediately rush to teh phone. She would call her friends, her famliy and give them a SKEWED version of the dispute and then come back to talk to me.
She would throw thier "support" in my face as evidence that I was "wrong". I knew it was inappropriate at the time, but I didnt know why. NOW I KNOW.
Going to family and friends to resolve a dispute
a. Violates the privacy of the discussion b. Produces uneducated input c. Produces biased input d. Antagonises the dispute
Tell him if he has a disagreement with you to respect the marriage enough not to rush to his friends and famly for uniformed advice and support
If you haev a dispute, you do research or consult an expert, you don't ask mommy and daddy what they think unless THEY are educated/researched on the subject at hand
You have a united front in dealing with others; a co-constructed story about the meaning of the infidelity and a shared vision of monogamy
You think him running to mommy and daddy and his buddies for false support to embarass you about how unsafe YOU FEEL fits that description above?
He hasn't started reading it yet. I just gave it to him yesterday morning (I finished reading it on Wednesday). I have shown him a few passages from the book though, which he read and seemed open/amenable to. He's been operating in the manner he thinks is good (based on what makes HIM feel good), but clearly it hasn't been truly "good", or he wouldn't have had TWO affairs (let alone one).
I agree with you though -- and I pointed out to him when he told me about his convo with his parents that they were A) incorrect and B) clearly uninformed/uneducated and C) biased, no matter how "well-meaning" they were. I don't think he really talks to them about it anymore.
So... I suppose the answer is that I need to draw the hard lines in the sand, and work to get him to meet me there. But if, ultimately, he won't do it then I may have to consider moving on?
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
You are defining a healthy marriage... if he won't even meet you on what's healthy for the both of you...
His history alone should warrant him deferring to YOUR judgement and he should be keeping his mouth shut...
Two affairs in how long a time frame? He really doens't have ANY credibilty here right now...
If YOU approach him as if he's diong you a favour or as if you are ASKING him to ACT like an ADULT you will be met with childishness every time.
Give him time to read the text before pushing harder...
Okay. I will give him time to read through the book. Like I said, he seemed very interested after the passages I had him read (which pretty much all illustrated points I was trying to make to him that he wasn't quite hearing). And I even noticed him better embrace some of the ideas (like cutting off the OW) after I showed him what the book said about it.
But, I think I need to give myself an internal deadline for when I will start pushing harder again. I fear that if we lose inertia, it'll get buried under the rug and we'll be constantly tripping over that bulge until it eventually worms its way out again. It's basically what we did after the last affair (which was 10 years ago), and that worked about as well as putting butter on a burn!
Me: 29 Him: 30 Married: 2 years Together: 13 years No kids Bomb: 6/4/10 Started MC: 7/16/10
This is why he has to cut off all contact with OW :
Infidelity and the Egg
Penny R. Tupy 2004
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall Humpty Dumpty had a great fall All the King's horses And all the King's men Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again
I'm often asked why people who have affairs must permanently end all contact with their affair partner if their marriage is to recover and heal. After all, they were often friends with the lover prior to the affair and they don't want to lose the friendship along with all the other losses an affair leaves in its wake.
There are lots of quick and easy answers to that question. Ongoing contact is offensive and painful for the spouse, the affair is likely to rekindle, true healing of the marriage can't begin while the involved spouse is still emotionally connected to the affair partner. They are all valid reasons and there are good scientific reasons to back them up. So what more is there to say? I had a sudden visual image the other day that spoke to me about this issue and I'm hoping I can relay it in a way that makes it clearer.
The vast majority of affairs occur with someone we know. A close friend, co-worker, or even family member. Prior to an affair, even relationships as close as long term friendships retain a level of distance. Shirley Glass (Not Just Friends, 2003) describes it well when she speaks about the walls healthy marriages have erected around the couple to protect them from outside risks.
Intimacy requires vulnerability. As an affair couple moves along the continuum from friendship to lover layers of protection are peeled away. Topics that were off limits become primary areas of conversation. Touch that is reserved for the marriage is now exchanged with someone outside the marriage. Looks that pass between lovers are different than those that pass between friends and that layer or protection is now peeled away as well. Little by little, the walls that surround and protect the marriage are breached. The layers of distance are stripped away leaving the partners open, vulnerable, and intimately known at a level deeper than merely friendship.
When couples connect at this level they come to know each other in a way that cannot be reversed. They cannot unknow what they have come to see beneath the layers. Nor can they disconnect entirely from the intimacy that knowing creates.
When the affair ends, as most do, the layers of protection are gone. Just as all the King's Horses and all the King's Men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again – neither can we replace the layers covering the deepest most vulnerable parts of our being. We have been seen and we cannot remove the memory of that vision. An orange, once peeled, is forever revealed. The same is true of the human heart and soul.
Years later, an old flame – long forgotten and newly met – can touch us in ways someone who has not known us so deeply has no power to do. We know the inner core of our former loves, and they ours. This is, at the primal level, the reason contact with an affair partner must permanently end. That knowing – that depth of connection – cannot be undone. To remain in contact is to ever put the marriage at risk. To remain in contact sabotages our ability to recreate that level of knowingness and intimacy with our mate.
This is why our spouses are so offended and threatened with continued or renewed contact. They intuitively sense the missing protective layers of unknowing. They instinctively recognize the connection that has been created and the danger is poses to the marriage. They know in their depths that as long as contact continues healing cannot fully occur.
Friends can easily become lovers. But the reverse is not true. Lovers cannot easily become "just" friends.
And he shoudln't be arguing with you on a subject that
a. You have researched b. He has not
Lets use a driving analogy.
He has been driving for x years and has a perfectly clean record. You have been driving for just as long and have wrapped the household automobile around a tel pole not once but twice. This not only caused you and your H a great deal of financial hardship, but your H now questions your ability to operate the vehicle safely in the future.
HE takes the time to research driving manuals and other material to isolate what risks you took and why the automobile ended up ruined not once but twice.
You do nothing but complain that you are a good driver and know what you're doing.
He then begins quoting from the material to help you understand so that both of you do not have to experience this destructive hazzard a third time.
Now... In that scenario WHO has credibliity? The person with the CLEAN RECORD who DOES the follow up RESEARCH or the person who's done NO RESEARCH has TWO ACCIDENTS on their driving record who maintains to high heaven that they are a "safe" driver?
Do you see the problem there? Sorry, but this guy really needs to be put in his place or he's just manipulating you to the marriage's detriment and yours.
