My wife and I have been married for eight years. We married young. I was 23, she was 19. We've been through alot together in those short years. Her father was killed in a car accident just before we were married and my wife battled deep depression for many years after that. As we battled her depression, we had good times and bad.
I did my best to stand by her, give her the support she needed and just be there for her. I wish I could say I was perfect in my efforts, but I wasn't. I messed up more times than I can count. I went through a period where I drank alot. When I lost my job two years ago and my grandmother not long after, I went through some depression of my own.
Our sex life has been on a steady decline for years. I wanted more sex than we were having, but she just didn't feel like it. I always chalked it up to her depression and, to be honest, I don't care all that much about it anymore. It's her I love, not the sex. I'd go my whole life never having sex again if I could keep her. I only mention it here because it may be relevant somehow that I'm missing.
My wife recently told me that she doesn't feel the same way about me. It's confusing. She says she loves me, but she doesn't feel the same way about me anymore. She says she doesn't feel a "spark" anymore when she kisses me. She says that I am her best friend (I agree. She's my best friend too.) and she just sees me as that.
Tonight, my wife said something I'd never heard before. We had what I thought was a small argument about redesigning a closet. In the aftermath, as we were talking things out, she said that she was angry at me because she felt like she didn't measure up to me. She told me that I was a good man who worked hard and always supported her and that she was angry because that wasn't enough for her.
My first reaction is to try to reason things out. I explained to her that I believe a "spark" is only one of many components of a marriage. Companionship, security, respect, friendship, shared values, etc... are also equally important. I explained that our marriage is strong in most of these ways and only weak in one. Surely that can't be a logical grounds for divorce. I also reminded her that she has been there for me as much as I've been there for her. I told her she is a good wife. (My wife always feels inferior for some reason. In her job, when we were in school, she never feels like she measures up.) I told her she makes me happy.
I love this woman with all of my heart. She is the best thing that has ever happened to me and our marriage makes me happier than I've ever been. I will do anything to keep her happy and save our marriage. I'm terrified that I've lost her. I've never seen her like this. I'm afraid she's decided that the only way she'll be happy is to walk away and I don't know what to do.
I don't think you're out of chances, if that helps. I also don't think you're helping yourself when she tells you that she needs to "feel a spark" for you or she'll be headed for divorce, and you reply that the spark isn't important as long as you're comfortable as companions. If she tells you what she needs in the marriage, and you tell her it's not important, you're telling her that you shouldn't be married. Think about the most important thing in the marriage--the one part of your relationship with your wife that you couldn't do without. Now imagine her explaining that it's not really important because there are other good things in the marriage. Would that convince you?
She feels low desire for you and she feels angry at herself over feeling low desire at the same time. It doesn't have to make sense to you right now as long as you understand that it's likely true; I still don't completely get how it works.
You're going to have to think hard about why you want to stay married to this woman. You seem to be saying that you missed the sexual "spark" when you first noticed it fading, but have now adapted. So why be married? Why not just be buddies, especially since you don't apparently have kids? I don't ask that because I buy it, but because she may be thinking the same things. Are you sure you can live without that "spark" between you? It seems like maybe she can't.
Have you read the Michele Weiner-Davis books this forum is about, like Divorcebusting or The Sex-Starved Marriage? (I would start with The Sex-Starved Marriage book if I were you.) Other books often recommended here that have helped people in similar fixes are No More Mr. Nice Guy and The Passionate Marriage. (Basically I'm only recommending books I've read myself, so if other people recommend other things, that doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with them.)
The Sex-Starved Marriage: Reading this is what helped me break through to my wife. She had low/no desire for years, and I'd been pressuring her and fighting her for years without ever making much of a dent. SSM showed me that other people had my problems, that things I only dimly understood had names, and that there were ways to get what I needed and give her what she needed if I was willing to take the risks and do the work.
No More Mr. Nice Guy: This book by Dr. Robert Glover is maybe the least useful of the three, and it won't help unless you have traits of what Glover calls "Mr. Nice Guy." But from your post, it sounds like you could benefit from it. "Nice Guys" in Glover's parlance are men who believe that aggression and arrogance are so bad that they have to "be nice" all the time--only, "being nice" here isn't really nice. It's a sort of servile, bland, cringing attitude that you have to avoid "being a problem" as much as possible, and it means you don't stand up for your own needs, and it can often mean that you have a hard time being genuinely nice because you resent all the things you've done or given up without getting something in return ("being nice" as part of an arrangement to get something in return--usually without telling the other person that you expect to be repaid--is another trait of Nice Guys.) Nice Guys think that if they just "be supportive" enough and give up enough (like sex with your wife) then she'll be obligated to stay with you and love you. But it doesn't work like that, and it's so insidious that it's hard even to recognize this kind of thinking in yourself.
Passionate Marriage by Schnarch: I'm only getting around to reading this right now myself, and I put it last mostly because it's the longest, most involved of the three. But I do think there are important ideas in here. Schnarch emphasizes "differentiation," the ability to soothe yourself when you need it and sustain yourself close to your spouse. The opposite is "fusion," wherein you need your spouse because your self is tied to their self--you get validated by reflection from them. This is draining for both of you, and leads to people who are "too much in love" (like the husband who beats his wife, and the wife who can't leave him even so) or people who say "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" (people who care about each other because they're emotionally fused, but don't feel like they're in love because they're drained from the effort of completely supporting each other and not supporting themselves.)
She may not want to join you in this at first, and that's OK. Do what you can. Maybe start by thinking about the question above: Why do you want to stay married? Why is that better than divorcing and being friends?
I want to be married to my wife, first because I love her. I can't imagine my life without her...without us. She makes me happy and I thought I made her happy. To me, we've had way more happy times than bad times even in the face of some tragic circumstances.
Second, I don't want to lose the life and the lifestyle we have. I like our home. I like our friends. I like our social circle. I don't want to lose that.
Third, I'm afraid of not being able to be there for her if she needs me. If she's sad, or sick, or hurt or afraid. Being able to be there with her through these things makes me happy. It makes me feel like I have a purpose and a place and a role.
Fourth, I don't want to be a failure. I don't know how I could look my family and friends in the eye and admit that I failed at my marriage, especially after this long.
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I haven't read the books yet. I just recently found this site. Thank you for recommending specific books, I didn't know which to choose and there are quite a few of them.
About the "spark", this part seems so strange to me. We went so long with her not being interested in sex (I thought because of her depression)where I was interested and we had lots of arguments about the fact that I wanted it and she didn't. I asked myself if missing that one thing was grounds to end the marriage and decided absolutely not. Now it seems the script is flipped only I'm not disinterested in sex with my wife, she's disinterested in sex with me and now seems to be holding that against me.
I had hoped it would make her feel better to know that there was nothing wrong with her and that I would still love her without sex, it seems I was wrong. Maybe you're right and I minimized her feelings unintentionally.
OK, why does she make you happy? What about her makes you happy?
I'm not trying to get you to admit that she doesn't make you happy, you just need to have a clear statement of what exactly is at stake for you here. For both of you, really. The reason I'm only asking about the first one is that the other three were very clear.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the way a man and a woman relate sexually necessarily makes any logical sense. There's a hole in my wall from banging my head against that particular spot. But there are reasons why she doesn't want sex, even if neither of you see all of them. It DOES make sense to her in some way, but that doesn't mean that she would be proud of her reasons or even able to face up to them honestly.
Quote:
I asked myself if missing that one thing was grounds to end the marriage and decided absolutely not.
Think about this carefully. Was that true? Or were you just determined that no reason would be enough to make you end the marriage? It's not so much a matter of whether it's worth ending the marriage, but whether it's a dealbreaker for you or not. If it is, then you betray your integrity by accepting a sexless marriage. But not accepting it doesn't necessarily have to mean your marriage ends . . . it might, though, mean taking that chance. I can tell you that nothing changed for real in my marriage until I abandoned my "I would never, ever leave you for any reason, ever" stance and told my wife that I would not live in a sexless marriage (with the anger and resentment and lack of self-respect that carried for me.) I had to face the fact that our marriage would either change so it could continue or end in divorce.
Notice that this is not a demand that she has to have sex . . . it's just acknowledging that we both have a choice, and that I've reached a point where I can't keep pushing that choice aside anymore. To have self-respect, I have to do what I can to get what I want in life, and I want to be married to my lover, not my roommate, sister, or employer. The problem with that, from her point of view, is that as long as I was afraid to force the issue, she could coast along in low-level misery in our sexless marriage and had an excuse to defer her choice indefinitely, too. Once I made my choice, she had to make hers, and that was scary. I didn't understand all this as well at the time as I do now--Schnarch explains it well, and I hadn't read him back then. Bottom line, though, I was slowly losing my wife and my marriage by keeping quiet and trying to go along, hoping I'd find a way to make her happy. What made her happy was finding herself married to a man she could respect, which was impossible until I stood up for what I believe and want.
Last thing, because I'm no longer on call tonight and I've got to get to bed: It doesn't seem from the little reading I've done about your situation here as if your wife believes you when you say the sex doesn't matter to you. It seems from your description as if she doesn't like her lack of desire, doesn't think you're as resigned as you say you are, and doesn't respect your choice to set yourself aside to try to serve "her needs."
Tonight, my wife said something I'd never heard before. We had what I thought was a small argument about redesigning a closet. In the aftermath, as we were talking things out, she said that she was angry at me because she felt like she didn't measure up to me. She told me that I was a good man who worked hard and always supported her and that she was angry because that wasn't enough for her.
My first reaction is to try to reason things out. I explained to her that I believe a "spark" is only one of many components of a marriage. Companionship, security, respect, friendship, shared values, etc... are also equally important. I explained that our marriage is strong in most of these ways and only weak in one. Surely that can't be a logical grounds for divorce. I also reminded her that she has been there for me as much as I've been there for her. I told her she is a good wife. (My wife always feels inferior for some reason. In her job, when we were in school, she never feels like she measures up.) I told her she makes me happy.
You married when she was 19. Did she finish school? Degree? Fulfilling job?
When she goes to do something (aka doing the closet), do you overturn her suggestions and usually get your way? Do you say things like, "let me help"...and then she ends up on the couch watching? How do you let her know you're proud of something she did, or praise and accomplishment?
It can be something as simple as "where do you want to eat dinner?" She says "Chili's", then you say "I'm not really in the mood for Chili's, let's go to RedLobster?" While the guy thinks he's being gracious by asking- he's actually discounting her input, as if her choice doesn't matter.
It can be as simple as giving praise in a certain way. Example- Wow you did it! instead of Wow that looks great! or Were you able to get it done? instead of How did it go? or How hard was it? The difference is that the first one projects the aire of you didn't think she could and then she did, while the second projects true praise and helps build her up because she did it and you knew she could. The second statements also invites her to share her experience with you since you seem interested.
From what you've explained, your wife still seems like she is able to talk to you. That's good. I see a positive that she was actually able to voice to you that she feels inferior. Now you need to figure out why. Find out what SHE wants.
I have a double BA with Cum Laude and High Honors, a MA with a 4.0 GPA, am set to start my PHd., and I am a kick a$$ teacher with accolades up the wazoo; yet H can and does relate to me in ways that cause me to feel as if I can't do anything. The way he talks, the way he takes over things, the "little stuff"...... I'm slowly working on him
and it's not just my H, I see it so often dealing with parents of students. So when I hear about a wife/husband who feels inferior, can't do anything right or just like they'll never live up to their spouses expectations; I always 'listen' to the words the spouse uses.
What words do you use? How can they be rephrased? Remember, it's not really the thought that counts, and it's not really the intent that matters.....it's how it's recieved- her perception is her perception. you're not going to change her perception, but you can change your actions and words so it's percieved the way you intend it.
Oh, and when I feel inferior like that, it's really hard to feel attracted to him and desire sex.
I may be way off, but given her words, and the fact that you married young.... it's worth a look.
I am about where you are now. I get the confusion and not really knowing what happened. I guess I don't have much more to add than that, since I have no solutions for myself right now.
H32 Me32 together:10 M:5 No kids ILYBINILWY 7/28/10 OW found 8/15 A exposed 8/31 I Move 9/3 Dark 10/1
Bottom line, though, I was slowly losing my wife and my marriage by keeping quiet and trying to go along, hoping I'd find a way to make her happy. What made her happy was finding herself married to a man she could respect, which was impossible until I stood up for what I believe and want.
This is soooo spot on.
LaSombra--you're right. Sex isn't everything in a marriage but it is a (big) part of it. You should tell her that.
There is some disconnect going on if she's saying she doesn't want sex but also note it's definitely tied into her "not feeling the same" about you. Women tie a lot of their emotions into sex. If she feels the emotional part of your M waning, she won't be as sexually attracted to you.
