Looking for help with WAW

[mza8]

Bump for Coach.

[Coach]

I can't get to the alt from work. I can check later.

[mza8]

Thanks Coach.

[gr8 day 2B alive]

mza8

just checking in on you. how's it going?

[mza8]

Sigh…tough day yesterday.

I haven’t posted much, been trying to use the advice given to me. Unfortunately I had a rough conversation with W today. Sorry for the long post.

We needed to talk today about the house. The contract with our agent expired and the agent didn’t seem like she wanted the listing anymore. W left me a voice mail last week that she reconsidered the house price and wanted to lower it. I was busy over the weekend and yesterday was the first time we could talk about it.

W called me yesterday afternoon and we discussed lowering the house price and going with a different agent. I decided not to move back. Selling the house is the right thing to do and I don’t need the pressure of trying to keep the house on my own…it’s not worth it. I also know that my W wants it sold.

So I told my W that I would be willing to list the house this time and use my portion of the commission and put it back towards the house if we needed it to make-up the difference in what we owe if we didn’t get enough from the sale. I had made this offer to her the first time months ago but she didn’t feel comfortable with that unless I signed something saying I would use my commission to pay any shortage on the house. So when I made the offer tonight she brought up me signing this agreement again. I told her that I didn’t want to sign anything and that she should trust me. I told her by me being the agent we could lower the price much more because we wouldn’t have to pay all of the commission to another agent. By lowering the price we could sell this house much quicker. I offered to her that we relist it with a really low price which I knew would make her happy. She definitely like my idea but then brought up wanting me to sign this agreement.

This is where things went downhill. I told her that I didn’t feel comfortable signing this agreement. I asked her if she would ever be able to trust me again. I said this would be a good way to bring some trust back. Then the bottom fell out. She said that I have done nothing since the separation to give her any reason to trust me. She said by me not wanting to sign the separation agreement when she left, that this gave her no reason to trust me. She said that I was still controlling and wanting to still do things my way. I validated, told her I understand but just because I didn’t want to sign the separation agreement I didn’t think that was a reason not to trust me.

Then I don’t know what happened. We both went silent. We were silent on the phone for about 3 minutes. Very weird to be on the phone with no one talking for 3 minutes. It felt like an eternity. I then said that I wish she wasn’t so angry with me. Then more silence…probably 2 minutes. Then I told her that I know she has no trust in me. Again, another 2 minutes of silence. Then I told her that I was sorry that she was so frustrated with me. More silence. Very strange, she didn’t say a word.

I don’t know what came over me at this point but I just started pouring me heart out to her. I started off by apologizing to her for many specific things in the marriage. I had written her a letter of apology but never sent it. Well I don’t have to worry about the letter anymore because I told her just about everything in the letter. I apologized to her for not only putting us in a financial crisis but also for things like being controlling, smothering, not listening, etc. I got emotional and I know I shouldn’t have. It felt like 9 months of emotion just came out. Remember, W and I have never had a talk about why she left or any R talks.

I told W the things that I have learned about our M, the things that I regret and the things that I now know I should have changed. I told her that I put myself in her position and tried to understand how she must have felt. I told her that it would be disrespectful of me to say that I know exactly how she felt but I was trying to understand. I got emotional again when I told her that it tears me apart to think how she must have felt, the stress, the pressure, the financial mess. She said nothing, totally quiet on her end. She just listened.

I talked for about 30-45 minutes and she just listened, literally did not say a word. Finally at the end of the conversation she said that she appreciated and accepted my apologies. She said it meant something to her. She said something about forgiving yourself first before you can forgive others. She said it sounded like I have done a lot of thinking about the M and our problems over the past few years. She again said that she appreciated me telling her these things. She said she had to go and we could talk later. I got myself together and said that it would be nice to be able to talk. I said that we haven’t talked in 9 months and it would be nice to talk together in private or in counseling. She said how she offered to go to counseling before but I didn’t want to go. Well no wonder, she wanted to go for closure before. I asked her if she would go to counseling now and that I had an appointment coming up. She said she would go.

She then said that she doesn’t see us getting back together. She told me that too much has happened. I told her that I wish I would have gone to counseling a year ago when she wanted to. She argued that it was actually two years ago. Whatever, I didn’t argue as the time was not really the point. I said that I don’t know if this M can be saved or not but that I am willing to try. I said I know it will be hard work.

She said she doesn’t feel like trying anymore. I said that everyone in life, at least once, deserves a second chance. I told her that I do not understand why she wouldn’t be willing to try. She said that even if we went to counseling two years ago that who knows if we still wouldn’t be where we are today. It was like no matter what I said to her she was going to come up with an answer for everything as to why she didn’t want to try.

She then got upset with me because she said I was trying to keep her on the phone when she told me 20 minutes earlier that she had to go, she had to be somewhere. I said that I wasn’t trying to keep her on the phone. She talked a little more and I talked a little more. Then she got upset again, really upset, and said that this was the old mza8 trying to control the situation. She said that this whole conversation I had been telling her about things I have changed…a new mza8. She said that when push comes to shove that the old mza8 came out. I told her that I understood and was sorry she felt that way. I said that she was right but not to take my entire conversation and think that I hadn’t changed. I said that this was a difficult conversation for me and that I didn’t want to get into a R talk but it just happened.

She wouldn’t go into too many specific reasons why she didn’t want to work on the marriage. She mostly repeated her answer that she couldn’t try anymore, that she had been through too much. It seemed pretty clear though that talking about trust and anger stirred up some of her emotions. She even admitted that she still had anger and no trust for me. She would keep saying that this is where she is today as far as not wanting to work on the marriage. She said that I should respect this is how she feels now. Then she made a weird comment. She said that people can change their feelings the next day, the next week or the next month. Then she went back and said that this is how she feels today.

I know I screwed up by getting into this R talk with her. I know I screwed up by getting emotional with her. Hit me with the 2x4s, I deserve it. As I said though, it felt like something inside me just vented all of my emotions and feelings for the past 9 months. She said we could continue this conversation later. I again asked if she would want to meet together privately or with a counselor, I asked her what would make her more comfortable. She said she would go to a counselor with me. I know she doesn’t want to go for reconciliation. I told her that it would be nice to just talk like we did today. For both of us to just tell each other our feelings and maybe get a better understanding of the other person. I said let’s not label why were going, let’s just go. So, I know she’s not wanting to go for reconciliation but she did agree to go. I think we have come to a point that it’s time to talk. Perhaps the counselor can help us communicate with each other without getting into pointing fingers at each other or placing blame. No matter what I said to my W tonight she would have an answer or excuse for everything. I can’t answer her one on one without her thinking I’m being controlling or the old mza8. So hopefully the counselor can help balance out the conversation.

W and I said we would talk more tomorrow night about next steps for house. I don’t want to sign any agreement with my commission. I will absolutely use my commission towards any shortage with the house but I don’t want to feel pressure and controlled by my W to sign that agreement. I don’t think my signing or not signing that agreement should mean she can or can’t trust me. I feel like how I handle that will be scrutinized by her. After today’s conversation I feel like she is keeping score of what I do to show change.

I was so frustrated with myself after the conversation. I know I did everything wrong. I couldn’t believe I was having this emotional conversation. I know it went against DBing that I have worked so hard to do. I know I shouldn’t have expected any different response from my W at this time. I do however, think that this conversation might have at least started the long overdue talk about the M. In this conversation we agreed to go to counseling. She knows why she wants to go and I know why I want to go but at least we are going. Maybe that’s a start.

As always any advice or comments are welcome.

[Ken62]

Hey mza8,

No 2x4s from me because I have no right to hand them out. I'm glad you were able to get those things off your chest after 9 months.

The only question I have is about the agreement she wants you to sign. If the outcome is the same whether you sign the agreement or not then why not sign the agreement? If I understand this correctly you will use any commission to pay a shortage and she wants you to sign an agreement stating this as fact. Why not sign? It seems like a pride thing and a perfect example where you would have been able to validate your W and give her something that she wanted and instead you stood your ground out of principle? I guess I don't get it.

Just my thoughts.

[mza8]

Hi Ken. Hope things are well with you.

You make a good point Ken. I don't know why I am so against signing that agreement. It's not like it's a separation agreement or anything. You're correct that the outcome would be the same no matter if I signed it or not. I would use my part of the commission towards any mortgage shortage if needed.

I guess that it bothers me that the woman who I have been with for 19 years doesn't trust me enough to take my word and wants me to put it in writing. Kind of says how low things have come I guess. I think deep down I want her to have me sell the house without the agreement because I think that would be a sign of trust by her.

I can see it from her side too. Right now she feels she has zero reason to trust me. She's watching what I do. I think she's looking for a reason to start to trust me again. I wonder if I did sign the agreement if that would give her a small amount of trust back for me? I just feel like she complains that I'm controlling but I see her being just as controlling. It's her way or no way. God, we can both be so stubborn.

I've been thinking about it today and need another day or two to think some more. Listening to some of the things she said to me it was clear she is extremely skeptical or any of my changes being real. I didn't like how she said that at the end of the conversation that I was my old self. It was like no matter all of the things and actions that I showed her, all she focused on was one little thing and said "there's the old mza8". Ughh, very frustrating.

When we talked about the past two years I said it was hellish. She agreed and said it was like living in hell with all of the financial and other outside problems we had to deal with. I know this is what she fosuces on and I don't know how to get her to stop focusing on those two difficult years and focus on the good times and a possible good future? I think I know the answer... I'm just venting about it.

I talked to my IC today and told him that my W said she would come to an appointment with me. He said he would like to meet with her alone in one of the appointments. He said to ask her if she is more comfortable meeting together first or by herself first. He said to tell her that he will be neutral. He's a good counselor and a nice guy.

I'm trying to lead. I'm trying show stength and patience. It's confusing because some of the advice is to not be a doormat but then it's adised to do 180s and validate. Signing the agreement would be a 180. I feel like if I sign that agreement she will see it as her opportunity to ask me for other things like the separation agreement, etc. I think she'll push me (doormat).


She hasn't contacted me since we spoke on Tuesday. She was supposed to look for this commission document that she had her L draft months ago and email it to me to review. Haven't heard or received a thing yet. It will be strange if she still doesn't contact me tonight because she wants to get the house back on the marktet soon, it's currently expired.

Ok, I'm rambling on again and my last post was long enough. Thanks Ken for giving me something to think about. I need some time to think this through.

[robx]

...A few years ago my business fell on hard times and went out of business. This caused my wife and I to go through some very difficult times, financial, etc. It was very difficult to lose something that I had built for so many years. For the past two years after my company closed I have not had a steady job.

My wife asked me to get one and I know I needed to get one but for some reason I just couldn’t get motivated to do so. I have done some odd jobs on the side but not a steady job that I know my wife wanted me to get. She has had her job for the past two years.

She gave me the “I love you for the years we were together but that she doesn’t have those feelings anymore”. She told me that a person doesn’t change, meaning she thought I wouldn’t change. She was referring to my lack of a job mostly. I was in shock.

Can’t understand why she is moving so fast? Feel like this means no hope to save the marriage on the coming months?

My wife told me that she was frustrated by my not getting a regular job in the past two years after my company went out of business. She told me I had two years and done nothing. I can completely understand this. I guess I wanted more support from her to help me as I was obviously having difficulty after my company went out of business.

Since my wife left me I have taken this opportunity to work on myself. I recently got a good job.

I believe my wife still has love in her heart for me, although I sometimes don’t know anymore. She just changed to her maiden name on FB today. Seems like she’s saying this is the start of a new year and she’s taking steps to be rid of me, even in name.

Do most WAW go this fast to and take these steps in such a short amount of time? Does this mean there is no hope for reconciliation?

I don’t understand how they love you for so long and one day they leave you and don’t want to work on the marriage, not even talk about it?

Do I set boundaries now and say that I’m not ready to discuss dividing our things?

Any advice is appreciated.

So basically you had a business/company,
the business failed, hurt you both financially quite a bit, affected your security, more specifically and importantly, her security.

You sit on your duff and don't get a job for 2 years while she works for 2 years at a full time job. So even though your business failed and it hurt you both financially and affected your security, your answer was to sit down and mope about it while you're wife had to pick up the pieces and continue to work. And you did this for... 2 years.

You keep saying she made this decision so quickly but I'm guessing it took her @ 2 years to form this decision. Is it possible she ever had thoughts of having children or adopting a child? Is it possible those dreams were squashed by your lack of ambition? Even without kids, your lack of ambition to get a job and get back on your feet killed her. When the going got tough, you folded, you got knocked down and didn't pick yourself up for 2 years.

You mention depression, I know about depression and however it may make you feel, it's not a crutch and using it as an excuse or explanation is weak. If you used this a few times on her it gave her the impression that you were weak.

You basically killed the attraction between the two of you, lack of ambition, no drive, no leadership, depression, no happiness, no security and you did this for 2 years, it wasn't over night, don't kid yourself, it took a few years for this to happen.

Her changing back to her maiden name and setting up a new email account with the name change and changing FB with the name change suggests to me in part, preparing for another man. She may not have another man yet but she's getting prepared for the single life, for someone who is more masculine, secure and ambitious, someone who is more alive, someone who can make decisions, get the job done, etc.

She went to individual counselling before you knew about it to get some help dealing with her life, the problems she's faced alone since you were just moping for a couple of years. She probably felt very depressed, alone, tired, weak, scared and those things really affect women and you know though, she didn't just lay down & die for 2 years, she still plugged along, got a job, took care of the bills and you even though she was going through her own problems.

She doesn't sound like she was disrespectful so I'm not sure how you need to handle the boundaries issue.

She keeps asking you to do things and you keep telling her NO I don't want to.

Signing the agreement to use your commission to pay for the mortgage shortage isn't going to save your marriage.

But sign the F!@#$KING agreement.

For once in your life, show her you're a man of your word.
Prove it, you haven't proven anything for so long, she has no faith in your ability, your word to do anything you say you're going to do.

What's the commission on your home, $5K, $10K, $20K and if you're going to use it to pay for any amount still owing on your mortgage it would appear that you are not losing out on anything because someone would have to pay for that shortage, probably you. Who was taking care of the bills when you were in your 2 year slump? Since she's working, I'm assuming she was. She didn't have to sign an agreement, she just did what needed to be done because it HAD TO BE DONE.

Arguing over this is dumb.

Call her.

"Wife I will sign the agreement, bring it over anytime, the sooner the better so that my stupidity doesn't change my mind again on this, I definitely don't want to argue about this anymore. I know doing this won't bring you back to me and that's not the intention, my intention is just to show you that I will do what I said I would do, plain & simple, I am a man of my word and I'll sign a piece of paper to prove it to expedite the process of selling the home and taking care of what's owed on the mortgage. I also promise not to discuss the relationship with you anymore, you're free to do as you please and I won't stop you or stall/slow down the divorce process at all anymore, no more kids games. We're both adults, it's time I started acting like one. If you ever want to talk, call me, I'll be there and NO I don't have to sign an agreement on that one. You know I love you and wish you the best and want only good things for you regardless of what happens between us. As for the counseling, I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do and I don't want you to be uncomfortable doing this either, do what you feel you need to do, I'll be OK regardless."

And that's it.

Enough of this nonsense, that's why she's so bored of you, you're addicted to the drama more than she is!

[mza8]

Hi Rob. Thank you for your post.

You are just about dead on with your comments about those two miserable years. Yes, no doubt, I handled the situation very poorly. Of course I would give anything to go back and done things differently knowing what I know now. That’s not to say I would have wanted to do things differently just to change where my M is now, instead I would have wanted to do things differently knowing what it takes to be a strong man and lead.

Those two years were pure hell. When my company closed I was dealing with all kinds of lawsuits that I had to deal with almost daily. One person even tried to bring a suit against my wife which really pissed me off. It was almost a full time job at one point dealing with this mess. It was necessary to put so much time into dealing with this mess so that I could get it behind us. The process moved painfully slow.

I did go out and get my real estate license during this time. With the market being so poor I wasn’t able to find much business. My W wanted me to get a regular 9-5 job and I can understand that, she needed security. I will say that I was the only person taking care of the issues of the business problems, dealing with lawyers, working with our bank about trying to keep our house/cars, supporting her with her health issues, etc. Those two years had a tremendous affect on me too.

Before the problems with the company life was very very good. We did a lot of fun things, vacations, stayed at wonderful hotels, purchased new furniture for our house, bought her the best clothes, whatever she wanted…went out and lived life and had fun. I gave her a wonderful life. She wasn’t working during this time…I was supporting her for 4 years. She had to quit her job earlier because it caused her extreme stress and was causing her health problems. So I told her she could quit and work with me (I didn’t really even expect her to do anything with my company, she could do whatever she wanted) hoping this would help her health.

I’m sure that during those past two years she thought I had no ambition. Sure, I could see how she would think that but it’s not to say that’s who I am. I was very ambitious and a very hard worker with my company. I took an idea of mine 10 years ago and made into something great. It provided a very good life for my W and I for many years. If I hadn’t run into some problems I would still be doing it today and her and I would be loving life together.

This is the problem. My W only wants to see the last two years and she thinks that defines me. Well, it doesn’t. I’m not making excuses for the past anymore. I regret how I handled or didn’t handle things. I wouldn’t want to experience that hell ever again. It would be nice if we could both agree that it was a horrible time but that we can move on from it if we both (mostly me) can make the changes. This is what I’ve been doing consistently now. It hasn’t been too difficult to make these changes because the person I was two years ago is not the person that I am.

Rob, let me ask you a question. She has our joint money in a separate account that I do not know where it is or how much is left. She told me that everything is still there and the balance. She only uses it to pay for the few joints bills we have left. I have not made an issue out of this for months. I have not asked her to show me a bank statement or demanded that she return the money to our joint account. I am showing trust on my end about this. My question is, doesn’t this show her that I trust her and so therefore she should trust me to sell the house without signing an agreement?

I’m taking care of all of the house maintenance, agreed to go with the real estate agent she wanted (without objection) for the past three months, I did all kinds of work that the other agent should have done, I’ve given her huge amounts of space…shouldn’t some of this give me a little trust from her? Yes, she worked those two years while I tried to handle the mess of the company. It’s sort of the same again. I am once again taking care of all of the problems, she is not doing a thing. I was the contact with her agent. I am still the only one talking to the bank about the house. I am the one paying for our car and insurance. Doesn’t this seem a bit one sided and she wants me to sign an agreement for me to sell the house? This is what I have an issue with. I’m doing all of this with a smile and she still wants more. Yes, I understand that she has huge trust issues from my actions for the past two years but given all that I am doing now, I still need to sign an agreement to prove myself? Maybe I do. I’m just thinking out loud, not trying to be combative or make excuses. These are some of the things I think about.

These are the reasons why I haven’t already signed this agreement. I like what you wrote Rob. It’s right on the money. I should say it word for word to my W. I would really like to. I probably will. She still hasn't contacted me since our talk on Tuesday. We still need to make a decision on who is listing the house. I need to step up here and call her to tell her that I will list the house and sign the agreement. I know.

Thanks again Rob.

[robx]

Rob, let me ask you a question. She has our joint money in a separate account that I do not know where it is or how much is left. She told me that everything is still there and the balance. She only uses it to pay for the few joints bills we have left. I have not made an issue out of this for months. I have not asked her to show me a bank statement or demanded that she return the money to our joint account. I am showing trust on my end about this. My question is, doesn’t this show her that I trust her and so therefore she should trust me to sell the house without signing an agreement?

She is so focused on those 2 years of "hell" because.... you guys lived a great life before that.

Think of the change process involved in adjusting from a great life to a crappy one.

Going from not working and enjoying a great life to having to get a job and work to pay the bills because you apparently couldn't provide for her anymore (loss of security).

So she took the money in the joint account to protect herself just in case the floor falls out from beneath her feet again.

I hear what you say about those 2 years,
I'm not totally unfeeling towards you in that respect,
life is hard, it sucks sometimes. I don't want to say we aren't defined by our great moments because we are, but we are probably more recognized for how we handle adversity and bad times, and that's what your wife focuses on right now, that's all she can see.

Don't fault her for it.

Human beings in general are wired to remember negative times more vividly then positive times.

It's a survival mechanism, we need to remember negative times and responses otherwise if we didn't have this ability to recognize negative events, our species as a whole would have probably died out a long time ago. She is wired (as are you) to remember bad times. We're all built a little differently with regards to how sensitive we are and how we respond to them. You remember that fire is hot, burning yourself hurts, getting cut and bleeding are bad, falling down and breaking a bone is bad, getting into a car accident is bad, walking on the sidewalks is safe, walking on the road during busy traffic is not so safe, people who hurt us are bad, stay away from them, people who don't make us feel secure will not take care of us, etc. Seriously there are like a 1000 more examples to ramble on about but I think you get the point.

We remember negative experiences because it's how we survive, we remember them so we know to avoid those problems.

Otherwise we'd all think jumping off bridges is a fun thing to do ;-)

Back to you:

She's not worried about you trusting her,
in her mind, in her point of view, she hasn't done anything to break your trust but... in her point of view, she doesn't trust you, you didn't do what you were supposed to do which was protect her and make her feel more secure. She learned that when the going got tough, you weren't there to protect her and she needed that.

You can discuss this ad nauseum and point out the logic of the situation in many different ways and I'm not faulting you for your rough patch but I can see how your wife has issues with you because of it.

So her keeping that money in her account that you don't have access to so that she can pay whatever bills are required, is her own little piece of security and you know what, let her have that security, don't bust her hump over it, realize it for what it is and just adopt the "I understand" mentality because she is very insecure regardless if she admits it or not.

Your part on this is to rebuild the trust through consistent actions, be a man of your word, be ambitious, be a go getting, make a great life for yourself and if she wants back, she'll come back eventually if she ever feels secure around you again.

That's my take on this.

Sign that agreement, sell the house, use the commission to pay for whatever is left on the mortgage if the sale proceeds don't cover it, be a man of your word.

Sometimes it's difficult to see the other person's point of view, you have to open your eyes to the possibility that another point of view looking at the exact same situation will yield an entirely different perception of reality. That's the case with you and your wife right now.

I'm glad you didn't see my 2x4 as bashing you but helping you see the other side of things, in my point of view, that's a step in the right direction.