new chapter with strange WAW

[futureunknown]

Had to pick up youngest daughter from W this afternoon. W looked sad. We had the following conversation:

W: "I'm sorry for how much I hurt you."
Me: "I'm sorry for hurting you too."
W: "Something really bad comes out in me with you. I don't know what it is. I'm going back to <our MC, who's also her IC>, I have to figure it out."
Me: "I haven't felt anything bad from you over the last couple months." (totally a dumb thing to say, because for one, it was disagreeing with her, and two, I didn't know what she meant by "bad")
W: "We'll talk about it."
Me: "Funny, I was thinking about calling <MC> today too."
W: "Really? Wow."

The vibe was very sad between us.

W: (reaches out and hugs me) "Even with all the ways you hurt me, you're a very good man."
Me: (acknowledging the ominous implications) "Amazing how much different things look now than a month ago."
W: "Yeah."
Me: "I just want you to know, I have felt what it was like for you in our marriage, or at least I think I have... and... it was really bad."
W: (nods)
Me: "Ok, gotta get going."

W walks away to get in her car. She had just picked up our daughter from a horse camp, and the back of her dark outfit was covered in cat and/or horse hair. She was going back to work, so I said "hold on", then I walked over and picked all the hair off her back and butt. We joked and laughed about it for a moment, then she said "Hope I look ok" and turned to get in her car. I said "You look great from here."

What is it with us that even after such a sad moment, possibly a marriage ending moment, that we can joke and have fun with each other?

The other thing I realized is, since we started this reconciliation process, we've had virtually no bad moments, no arguments, no tension. Just light hearted fun and flirting, good dates, and good times with the kids. I thought I was in a complete DBing groove. Yet here I am again facing likely divorce.

W seems to be acknowledging her part, and the need for her to do work on herself, but she's also acknowledging that our M will likely not survive.

At least she finally gave me a heartfelt apology.

One thing just occurred to me. I've resisted fully implementing the gucci and robx advice because I feel I owed it to her to own my part. Is it actually the case that she doesn't really care if I own my part? That she'd be far happier if I portrayed that I have nothing to apologize for, and just played hard to get? Am I that clueless?

[BeingMe]

Am I that clueless?

No, I think you are reading a situation only you can read, and you followed your instincts. We are all sitting here at the other end of this virtual world, and can only go on what you reveal. I am sure there are many nuances, and extra things that you just can't express it all. In the end, one's gut feeling is all you got, and one can only hope it leads to a healed M, or some conclusion where you can find peace.

[futureunknown]

Thanks BeingMe. The biggest nuance that's hard to convey is the positive vibe between W and me. We smile and joke EVERY time we see each other. That's why it's so hard for me to take the hard line approach. Just doesn't fit. Some of the other situations here have a much more contentious atmosphere, leading to hard line recommendations. I think being playfully coy and hard to get is really the demeanor I should have embraced. I did it somewhat, but I made it too clear to her that she had me if she wanted me. I was trying to do as Coach ascribes here, and lead her back to our M and family.

I'm not sure what she meant about something "bad" coming out in her when she's with me. Does it mean she perceives me as pathetic? She sure doesn't act like it. I get nothing but compliments and respect from her. Does it mean she knows she hurt me but just doesn't care? I finally saw pain in her face today when she said she was sorry. First time I've seen it. I can't tell if she's trying to make amends as part of an amicable end to our M, or if she's trying to work through it all. I imagine my statement Sunday about it being easier on me if she had died had some impact. I wonder if she's now thinking there's no hope of repairing the damage she did.

She's trying to be honest with me. I give her credit for that. She could easily just lie to me and give me what she thinks I need, and really keep all her options open. She KKNOWS I'm pulling away big time, and she KNOWS I very well might throw in the towel. Part of me feels I should acknowledge her openness and honesty.

I forgot one interesting part of our conversation today. Before she said "I'm sorry for how much I hurt you", she said "I've realized something else today, but it's nothing that will affect our future." Given the ominous tone of our conversation, how could she say it wouldn't affect our future?

Once the wayward spouse enters this stage of painful self reflection, what is the betrayed spouse to do? Just wait it out? I was talking to a friend today, and she said "You've grown so much, and made it so far. W has done nothing, and is only now starting her real work."

[SillyOldBear]

You've already said what you have to do; you know it, you just don't really like it, and I don't blame you. You have to let her go again, which is hard because you were starting to think you hadn't lost her after all.
And maybe you haven't lost her for good, but it's impossible to know for sure right now. She's all over the map.

You will have to let her go. You will need to be open to dating . . . you don't have to go out and kill yourself trying to find a date every weekend, but if you're passing up dates you want to go on, you're waiting on her. Waiting on her is a problem.

It's OK to wish it could have worked out differently, but asking her "Do I have to let you go again? Is that what I have to do?" is a tacit acknowledgment that you do have to do it. Like a parent asking, "What do I have to do? Do I have to take the car keys away?"--by the time he has to ask that, the answer is invariably yes, and parents who ask these questions and then don't follow through only teach the kids that they can be handled.

(I'm writing in as authoritative a tone as everyone else here, but of course you should keep in mind that most of them know a lot more about separation and divorce than I do. Many of them are trying to explain their first-hand experiences to you, and I don't have any.)

[BeingMe]

Once the wayward spouse enters this stage of painful self reflection, what is the betrayed spouse to do? Just wait it out? I was talking to a friend today, and she said "You've grown so much, and made it so far. W has done nothing, and is only now starting her real work."

Your friend is right. I allowed my H back before he was ready (straight after he broke it off with OW, if that is true), and now, five years later, I have asked him for a separation, and possibly down the road, a D. I am done. Why would I do this after waiting so long, so patiently, for the changes I had hoped to see? Because they never happened, and I ran out of patience. He stayed the same way he was throughout our M ... emotionally disconnected, while I had done so much work that he acknowledged was amazing. While he put in as much as would convince me to stay and move to a new city (which I found out was closer to OW, but he denies that had anything to do with it) to make a new beginning, and then reverted back to his old self. I waited for that new beginning, and the only thing that changed in our M was our geographic position. And I was then left without my friends and family. And, I can't go back because, thankfully, my S and D love it here and have done very well. We also still have fun, chat on the phone, go out for dinner, drinks with friends, care for each other just like you and your wife. We are friends, and I finally have come to terms with that. I think that is all he wanted from me, but probably didn't know how to get that across. Because, as he says when asked about my positive traits, I'm fun to be around. Good to know.

I think it's good that your wife is hesitating. I wish my H had. I think he only wanted back in, so that he could get his kids to the new city, and they would only leave if I did. He denies it of course. And, I wanted to believe him because we have four wonderful children, and at that time 19 years of M behind us.

Please just give it lots of time. Make sure you see the real changes before making the commitment.

Sorry about the long story.

[futureunknown]

Thanks SillyOldBear. It's funny. Part of me does dread letting her go again, but I have to admit, I also remember how much fun I was having earlier this year, and the peace I found in myself. I haven't lost that. The thought of letting her go this time is nothing like the first time.

BeingMe, I think your story is very interesting, as a comparison to what my W is doing. I agree, it's good she's resisting jumping back into our M for it's security, for the kids, for the ease of it all. I'm glad she's trying to figure this stuff out.

Dropped off kids at W's house this morning, and we had another short talk. She wasn't nearly as sad, but is extremely conflicted. She's still talking about our future together, so she's not giving up, but she acknowledged how I might want to. She told me that my comment about it being easier had she died is really weighing on her, as I thought it would. It had the desired effect of knocking her out of her fantasy world, where she doesn't have to truly face what she did. I did offer her a little relief though. I said "Listen W, I have no desire to dwell on the past. If we want to move forward, we need to deal with what happened, then we can leave it behind." She had a sound of dread in her voice and said "If we want to have a future, we have to talk about it." She continued with a sound of relief "Or, if we're not going to have a future, we don't have to talk about it, we can just let it go." I replied "Yup, exactly." She said "I've realized something about myself, and I hate it, I hate that it's part of me".

Our son came into the room, so we stopped the R talk, and just chit chatted about the kids. Then I said I had to go to work, and we hugged goodbye.

I got into my car and spilled my coffee all over my lap. Ugh!

[musclegal]

Future,
My aunt said today that my XH wants to get emotion from me. It doesn't matter what kind--sometimes its warm, sometimes its angry, sometimes its playful, but its clearly important to him to keep that emotional connection with me. So, he provokes me with all kinds of things until he gets it. Humor, flirtation, anger, whatever buttons he needs to push to feel some kind of emotional connection to me.

Future, think about your W and you. My question for you is whether you feel BETTER and HAPPIER and more yourself with that string to your wife or if you feel better without it.
I think that we all have to answer that question. I have realized that I feel better without it and need to respond without emotion wherever possible. For me, keeping the connection makes me feel sad and a huge sense of loss. Its confusing and conflicted. It makes me long for what I think could have been--but not for what was or is.

So, the question for you is: Did you feel better before the turn of events, when you were working on your own life, or do you feel better afterwards--where you are waiting to see what might develop? Go with which of those feels better. I couldn't take the limbo of the second approach and the feeling like I was being kept around in case XH wanted a Plan B. So, I did the right thing for me. But ask yourself those questions and see how you feel. If you feel better without the string, cut it. You've learned some good lessons and can apply them to a new relationship in the future. If you feel better with the connection, be honest about your feelings and expectations and then be patient and see what develops.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Musclegal,

Maybe it's just a guy thing, but I respectfully disagree. Your advice is loaded with the words "feel" and "feelings," and I do NOT think that is the best way to go about this critical stage.

Coach said this better than I could once, and so I saved it (the Title is mine, not his):


Coach’s “Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings” philosophy:

Respond in a way that reflects your values and beliefs not your feelings. As a Coach and a former military officer I know lots of ways to change how you are feeling. Feelings are fleeting, can be manipulated, can be dysfunctional, situational and are a poor compass.

Prisons are full of people who went with their feelings. To be a great DBer you need to be able to think. Detach and look at the situation in 360 degrees. State your goals (which are consistent with your beliefs) and come up with a plan of action. If your actions work keep doing it, if not try something new. Open your mind and don't let fear hold you back from acting.

If you love your spouse and let them go. It's not lying to do that, even though you don't feel that is the best thing to do. Understand your feelings, know why you feel the way you do and take healthy productive action based on your goals.

You have a choice in how you handle things. You can choose the path of love, self-respect, healthy communication, forgiveness and responsibility for your self. Or you can choose to be a victim, make others responsible for your feelings and let things happen to you. "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.

Cheers
Coach



Respectfully,

Puppy

[futureunknown]

musclegal, I totally get the "emotional connection" thing. If your XH can get emotional reaction from you, his anxiety about losing you is reduced, his options are still open, at least in his mind. I think our wayward spouses are not nearly so sure of themselves as they try to convey. They KNOW they're playing with fire, and could be facing a life of guilt, shame, and regret. As Puppy always says, they're trying to keep all those plates spinning!

I agree with Coach's philosophy. I failed to live by it last year. I wasn't strong enough to do it. I should have done what was RIGHT, and filed for D, rather than what I felt, which was hold onto to my W and M while she had abandoned me and it. I let her maintain that line of connection to me, and she used it to keep those plates spinning. By the time I finally got strong enough to do what I had to do, her A was nearly over. Did the pressure I put on hasten it's demise? I think so.

Now I find myself in a different situation. Nothing my W is doing right now is disrespectful to me. She has agreed not to date anyone else. She is conflicted, between wanting to save our M, and wanting to avoid the extreme pain of dealing with the consequences of her A. She says she needs time. She is being honest, and she is trying to face her demons. What else can I ask right now? I need to decide for myself if I'm willing to wait for her, and risk further pain. It's not so much a question of right and wrong any more, at least not externally.

[BeingMe]

Puppy and Coach's advice is spot on. Future, it is difficult in the beginning to handle what's happening. We know what is right, but faced with the loss of family (esp. where our children are concerned), we allow our feelings to be manipulated. You are strong now, and can handle anything. I, on the other hand, was pretty strong at the beginning. I was on the cusp of filing for SA and D, then my H found a chink in the armor; he begged me on the floor to go with to New City. At the time I thought it sincere, but now I wonder if he was begging for me, or for me and the children, or OW. Who knows; doesn't matter now. Anyway, my heart softened, and here we are, almost six years later.

I am going to go copy Coach's philosophy so that I never forget it again. Thanks for posting that, Puppy. It benefits everyone who goes onto Future's thread. I was also in the military; I know how feelings can be manipulated; I know about honour and doing the right thing (not that all military people are like that). Gosh! If you can handle being shouted at right in your face with no reaction, surely you can handle just about anything without bursting into tears.

Anyway, just musing here.