Thanks for the links. The second one won't open here at work. The first one was very interesting. I can understand the Fear thing on an abstract level. The psychology/physiology behind that seems solid and makes sense to me on that level. But seriously, where does empiricle proof fit in?
Fine to say: yes he's a big strong man and I'm a 120 lb woman, so when we are arguing, his deep resonant voice and physical bulk intimidate me, but when does the mind overide that and say: "You know, I've known this man for half my life. He's not going to harm me. He's a big old teddy bear and wouldn't hurt anybody". Or, "I've seen him stand between REAL danger and our kids without a moment's pause. I KNOW he will never, ever fail to protect them.
BTW, she has always been the more vicious and aggressive in our arguments.
Don't get me wrong, I will use this theory to try and validate her feelings, but while I tell her I understand them, I really feel like eventually she needs to take some responsibility for not thinking critically about this after all these years of consistant proof to the contrary.
And it makes me very sad to think that the one person I've cherished more than myself could really feel afraid of me.
AG
I hate to go down this road because is is politically incorrect, contrary to my 60's and 70's upbringing, and may offend some, (not to mention that it is contrary to "validation,") but who says this has to be logical or rational? I'm speaking as a litigation attorney who probably could have been awarded Invalidator of the Year for the last ten years running - so you're preaching to the choir when you say it isn't logical or supported by the evidence. But it's the way they are wired.
Think of this for a moment. We can accept that women can be irrational when they are pregnant, menstruating, or menopausal. Isn't it possible that other events can trigger a hormonal imbalance that causes them to be irrational? (at least to us).
Are we any less victims of our hormones? Do you think the majority of men made a logical and well thought out decision to withdraw when we are stressed out, etc.? That's how we are wired. Not everything and everyone can be explained by the theories of MWD, Gray, and Love, but I can tell you they have my wife and I pretty much nailed.
When women do not get the emotional support they need they are unable to produce the oxytocin and seratonin they need to handle stress and feel connected. When they do not get emotionally validated, they do not get those hormones and they can act as if they have PTSD. An increased workload (increases testosterone which decreases their ability to handle stress, etc.), death of a loved one, etc., can put them over the edge in terms of balance and ability to cope. If they do not get the oxytocin and seratonin they need, they cannot handle stress, may say and do irrational things, and detach from us. Sound familiar?
Then, they are incapable of handling the pain that is associated with their marital relationship and plan to leave. In order to justify their decision, they amplify everything bad in the relationship and minimize (or even forget) everything good.
When we can accept that the WAW is injured and we are partly responsible for that injury, we can begin to treat them with compassion and stop focusing on our own pain. It's also easier to forgive them.
When women do not get the emotional support they need they are unable to produce the oxytocin and seratonin they need to handle stress and feel connected. When they do not get emotionally validated, they do not get those hormones and they can act as if they have PTSD. An increased workload (increases testosterone which decreases their ability to handle stress, etc.), death of a loved one, etc., can put them over the edge in terms of balance and ability to cope. If they do not get the oxytocin and seratonin they need, they cannot handle stress, may say and do irrational things, and detach from us. Sound familiar?
Then, they are incapable of handling the pain that is associated with their marital relationship and plan to leave. In order to justify their decision, they amplify everything bad in the relationship and minimize (or even forget) everything good.
FYI - all of this happened to me: the lack of emotional support, death in family, high stressed job, viewing M more negatively (though with reason), yet I stayed. But i find this post very interesting. I hadn't heard about the PTSD correlation. Maybe that is why it is so difficult for me to let the M die?
I'll also tell you when I feel those hormones ping ponging about, sometimes i "know" it and other times they take over. My H had no empathy for homones and didn't mind contributing to the problem. So a H that was empathetic would get many kudos in my book.
He: WAH Me: LBW Precious: DD
~ I'm grateful for every day I have to improve the way I relate.
I forgot to ask, how are your kids holding up? They're around the same ages as mine. I just don't know what to do about that. That is the one thing that is consistantly making me feel hopeless and distraught.
My kids seem to be doing ok so far, but not much has changed for them since we are still living together and acting civily toward each other, at least for the most part.
They know this was W's idea. They asked me early on about missing Mom (sleeping in my room) and I told them I did. When I planned events I invited her to come along and she would say no. She would plan events and when they asked if I was coming along she would say no. She is sleeping in the guest room, not me. My D asked me to confirm that it was Mom's idea, but I said I wouldn't confirm it. On Friday, my son said, Mom is making a lot of bad decisions lately, isn't she?. I have apologized to each of my kids a number of times that this is happening to them.
They know what is going on, but seem to be dealing well so far. It will be much harder on them once we are actually separated. I don't know how long that is going to take, but I am working toward getting there.
68 items on the issues list - Holy cow. I thought I had it bad!!!! That is ridiculous.
OK. Dead to rights thinking like a guy. I guess I can accept this at face value even though I don't understand it as long as I know what it is going in. So I do NOT set the record straight, even though it makes me look like an ogre.
LRT, Thank you for the Ladies perspective.
Just out of curiosity, how do I now show empathy while detaching, setting boundaries and acting "as if". More importantly, if we turn this thing around, will she always be afraid? If not, then does it become a constant threat.
Since you're here, what does this morning signify to you?
Thanks again for the help.
ADAPT. OVERCOME. IMPROVISE. -Tom Highway
Me: 43 W: 40 S12 & S9 Married 17yrs Together 20yrs
[quote=MakingProgress When women do not get the emotional support they need they are unable to produce the oxytocin and seratonin they need to handle stress and feel connected. When they do not get emotionally validated, they do not get those hormones and they can act as if they have PTSD. An increased workload (increases testosterone which decreases their ability to handle stress, etc.), death of a loved one, etc., can put them over the edge in terms of balance and ability to cope. If they do not get the oxytocin and seratonin they need, they cannot handle stress, may say and do irrational things, and detach from us. Sound familiar?
Then, they are incapable of handling the pain that is associated with their marital relationship and plan to leave. In order to justify their decision, they amplify everything bad in the relationship and minimize (or even forget) everything good.
When we can accept that the WAW is injured and we are partly responsible for that injury, we can begin to treat them with compassion and stop focusing on our own pain. It's also easier to forgive them. [/quote]
I have the same question as Good. Let's say I accept all of this above, and I do, how does that affect the way I interact with my W now that she has had an EA and has filed for D? How do I treat her with compassion while still detaching and fighting for my life/family?
I'm in OKC. Probably half way between you and Barkley.
It seems like an epidemic doesn't it. It just doesn't seem probable that this can be so common. When I read the WAW syndrome paper, I was blown away. I thought it was unbelievable how much it mirrored my sitch. Then I started reading everybody else and I realized that this is a freakish pattern playing out everywhere.
It's like invasion of the body snatchers and we're just finding out.
ADAPT. OVERCOME. IMPROVISE. -Tom Highway
Me: 43 W: 40 S12 & S9 Married 17yrs Together 20yrs
It is comforting and disturbing to come here and read such similar stories. I have a WAH, and I'm sure he has some hormonal issues as well. When my hormones are high, I have a harder time dealing with him and seeing him in a loving way.
Goodman - that list your W gave you, IMHO, is plain nuts. I can't imagine throwing so many things at you at once. Now, my H would do that. I suggested we come up with a few things we could ask the other to do to improve things and allow them to pick 1 or 2, and then the next week add to that. He said he could come up with 100.
When H is crazy/hormonal/whatever, I know that talking to him is useless. Once it ends I have a shot at a rational conversation. When I am feeling that way, I am usually feeling neglected, rejected and am looking for reassurance.
So, a hormonal WAW? Drop the rope yet remain kind, respectful and wait for the rush to end (it always does). Then provide reassurance that you do care but won't tolerate over-the-top behavior. If they go off on you, say you'll talk to them when they are calm. If they storm after you, leave the room/house.
I have done a much better job of handling my moodswings after watching my diet more closely (carbs and sugar can set them off). The week before my cycle is the worse, and I tend to get weepy and short-fused. Know it for what it is, don't take it personally, and don't feed the beast.
Don't know if any of this makes sense. I feel completely inept in the R area at the moment.
He: WAH Me: LBW Precious: DD
~ I'm grateful for every day I have to improve the way I relate.
I've said before that I am not sure that all things work for all people in all circumstances and I don't have experience with PA's or EA's. On the other hand, a WAW having an EA at least seems consistent with someone who does not feel she is getting sufficient emotional support at home, right?
I'll just tell you what I've been doing. It seems to be working. Maybe we'll get derailed, but right now it's working exactly as the books and DB coach said it would, but it's important to understand what's really going on so that you are changing behavior and not just employing "techniques" to get your spouse back. It breaks down like this to me: if my wife needs to talk about her day with me, and not try and solve her problems but just be supportive and listen, it's the least I can do to give her emotional support and a heck of a lot easier than constantly trying to "save the day" for her. (If you want examples, I can give them to you.) If she needs me to take a more proactive role in the relationship, it's not like I was having a lot of fun isolating myself anyway. More importantly, I don't want our children learning and repeating the bad R habits we have.
My W did file for divorce. Nearly killed me. We've been married seventeen years and have two children. This never entered my mind as a possibility. But when she did, I unknowingly let the rope go (before I was even aware of the theory) when I told her that if she was going to do this, we needed to make plans and take some actions in the best interest of the children.
True WAW devise a divorce plan which becomes kind of like a security blanket. It's a long term plan that has relieved their stress in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if many W's who feel this way rely on the plan to relieve their stress and never implement it. Anyway, the WAW becomes convinced that leaving is less painful than trying to repair the relationship, or even talking about it in my case. The wall they build to protect them from the hurt of the R also insulates them from their feelings for you. Imagine their horror when they realize that they are no longer attracted to or feel a connection with the person they married and had children with. This causes them incredible pain and they become convinced that since they no longer feel it, it can never come back. So there is pain associated with the R, and no feeling of connection with their H.
If you challenge or fight the "plan," they embrace it all the tighter and may even accelerate it because you increase their stress. (I'm not saying you have to cooperate with the plan. DB coaches will tell you to stall without resisting it to give you as much time as possible.) If you don't challenge it, the urgency to implement the plan may fade. If you then demonstrate true understanding of what has been hurting the R and make living with you less stressful and more pleasurable, the entire dynamic/formula changes. The idea of the divorce becomes more stressful and the idea of reconciliation becomes less stressful. (And she doesn't even have to talk about it, which at this point would cause her more stress.)
At some point, (hopefully) they heal and reconnect. If you understand what really happened to your relationship, you can probably avoid falling back into old habits. If you are just using "techniques" without understanding, the long term prognosis is not good.
