Near WAW with EA - almost textbook sich

[Greek]

I feel like you have forgotten who I am. Let me reintroduce myself…

I love to smile and get one back and I love to love. I also have wonderful ideas that when put into motion can create some amazing things…I just don’t get to share those with you. I have my own opinions that make me who I am and sometimes they come from my soul and may not seem justified from an ego point of view. I like to be in the moment, be connected, as to not miss a single minute; there is less stress that way and it paves the way for magical times to happen. I also love to give, help, and support…that is who I am and I feel that I am there for anyone on this earth that asks or is in great need; when you give you get back 10x more! I believe that all people are good and that many times God gives us challenges and either we end up a better person for it or our soul quietly waits for another opportunity. Quietly is not always the best way…sometimes vulnerability can be good for it allows your spirit to speak its passion. It’s ok to share your feelings, XXXX (me)!

You don't have to go all melty-man (as the fellas say) about this...but don't cast it aside, either.

Greek

[Puppy Dog Tails]

So this is where we are

W says it is important for me to understand where she is and that she has a lot of hurt from our 18 years together. Sees nothing good from past relationship. Says she is looking for spiritual soul growth and believes we were put together for a reason but thinks that it is time to move on. No growth opportunities. Is glad to see me growing and changing but thinks it may be too late for us....however, not sure.


Says she wants love but does not think I can provide it to her. I say that I could provide that love but have been holding back while I reassess my feelings. I say that I feel something such as caring love but need to make sure my other feelings of attraction to her are real and not based on fear of loss. I do love her but do not want to say yet. Although I do tell her I think I love her.

W says if we could afford separation then she would leave today. Not divorce but a chance to be on her own. Wants to stay in town and set up a structured sep like a divorce. Wants to have kids during week and not leave them. Says that she still has a lot of hurt and pain seeing me everyday when I walk in door even though no more angry outbursts and disrespectful comments. Feels scars of unemotional relationship with me and believes only solution is to not see me everyday. I have offered separation opportunities but not sure if that is good enough.

W says it is the little things that I am doing that make a difference but does not believe that I can truly change after 22 years. Believes that I am who I am with my inability to show/share emotions and feelings. I tell her that I would love to show and share now but do not want to smother her.

W has no emotional connection to me. Says she has dropped the resentment and hate but now feels nothing towards me and does not understand why any positive feelings have come in to replace the negative. Believes that she is emotionally spent and has nothing more to offer our R and M. Says she is not willing to gamble that I can find my soul and reconnect. Does not want to expend any energy on me but wants to use that energy towards working on herself. Says that I should continue working on myself....she continues working on her self....she will commit to working on R but needs me to understand that possibility for her to also leave in the end if she cannot get feelings back are very real.



She is pretty determined to continue path out door. I thank her for giving me another chance and that working on our friendship is all that I can ask for now. I am glad we cannot afford a separation but I do tell her that if I could I would allow her to leave and accept her decision. She is happy that at least now "I get it".

I have bolded some points in this post that I think are very important for you to know about the person you have been married to for 22 years. It is NOT all that is at play right now - I read about the OM/old BF - I'll get to that in a minute. As I see it, you have to have two things going at once here. You have to SEE/HEAR/BELIEVE and LIVE what she is telling you (bolded). I recognize many of these things from my experience and I'm telling you, she's not messing with Sasquatch here. These are the real symptoms of a person who was replaced by a wife, mother, housekeeper, family accountant, nurse, doctor, cruise director, secretary... I read in your later post the letter where she introduced herself to you. Please, spend time in thought about this idea of your wife feeling she needed to introduce herself to you. It matters.

So that's one thing.

But at the SAME time, you cannot suffer any foolishness with this OM business. That needs to be over, transparent and no more sniffling about carrying the torch for him. Married adults may remember an old flame with fondness - but Big Girls know that the old BF ain't saving the day. He's in the past for a good reason.

What you don't want is to be caught in the LIMBO of "DMB, I want to leave for all the reasons I told you...but I can't b/c <fill in the blank>." Your position should be, "W, I hear you, I understand and I am sorry for overlooking YOU all of these years. I see you now and I want to work on my growth as a man who can partner with a woman. But if you feel you need to leave, that is what you should do. (This is where you make her put on the Big Girl Panties) Have you thought about moving in with a friend or maybe staying at a Residence Inn for as long as you can afford it?" Does she work, btw? If not, now is when you need to break it to her that she will have to have income to have this alone time. Otherwise, she's just whining and bringing everyone in the family down with her. Make sense?

Greek

and THAT, is the "hybrid," softball/hardball, approach that WORKS.



You need to fully work BOTH of these tracks, DMB. And unfortunately, there are no short-cuts on either one of them.

Puppy

[doing my best]

Thank you for weighing in on my post Greek. I have been writing all of my notes from joint MC session yesterday on notepad and will post highlights later tomorrow. But you do bring up some good points that make me think.

Regarding old BF from college....as far as I can tell...and I have looked even on her Google phone....there really has been no contact that I can see. The web browsing on the phone from the “time period of EA” is very heavy. Kept going to look at his family FB pictures a lot. Grilled her yesterday during joint C session and I am going to believe her for now…with a wary eye. However, I do not believe she is over him completely. May be in heavy withdrawal...might even be hoping that this will all end soon so she CAN contact him. Perhaps she is tempted and barely holding back. At this point I don't know. She did say during session Wednesday that she does not feel the need to contact him as much anymore because he was there for support early on and that support is not needed now. Still bothers me though and have asked MC to probe again further next time because W gets very irritated when I bring it up. Says she is trying NOT to think of him.

W has been a good mother and wife. Probably the Giver mentality but kept giving and feels she has not done anything for herself...she has been everything to everyone here and I can see where she is now wondering what about herself. The re-introduction she made to me was poignant and basically I have not put the relationship as a priority. I have put the family as a priority and pretty much known as a family guy....camping every month with YMCA father/child programs (over 10 years)....trips to theme parks, water parks, bike riding, etc. But not taking time to focus on me and W. I realize as I read the books I was not meeting her emotional needs for affection well enough so I tried to show love in other ways...doing the dishes, folding the clothes, doing the weekly grocery shopping, making more than half the dinners, packing the school lunches every day. Needed to also listen to her....laugh with her....and take her away for a good time.

I have given her the "you can move out if you want to speech".....but I like how you put it so if I do it again, I will use your verbiage as a template. I am afraid of the Limbo and aware so I will try not to let that happen.

The MC during our session was pretty much focused on W. Trying to get W to share her true intentions. W used the following metaphor to describe her perspective….basically to her I was dead....gone months ago in her mind. She was almost done mourning me when all of a sudden my ghost shows up and is now haunting her running around saying "I've change! I've changed!" So I jump in and say in my best DBing voice....I never have said that I have changed....I have said that I am working on myself so that I can be a better husband and father and improve any and all of my relationships in my life now and in the future. Knew enough from you folks to NEVER say hey I have changed. Anyway - HA! No wonder she wants to leave our house....it is a haunted house. She wants to have a spiritual connection so I do not know what she is complaining about!

OK....will post some MC session highlights tomorrow.

Thank you everyone!

DMB

[doing my best]

Journaling about first MC session together. We have been going separately for several weeks.

MC says to W how have things been. W says that it has been hectic. Family from up North in town but it was a good visit and was nice distraction for our situation. MC asks me and I say yes it was nice but we actually have had some of our most intense discussions over the past few days and I believe that we both fully understand each other’s position. I then read from a list prepared earlier in the day which I had confirmed with W and summarizes where we are:.

W’s position is that she is committed to working on the relationship but that commitment level is not what I thought it was from a few days ago. Basically she will continue with MC sessions, she will continue to have R talks with me and share thoughts, she is willing to spend time with me by going out, having fun, and trying to live in the moment. She wants to work on a friendship with me and work towards that level at least. She has made it clear that our old relationship had no growth and that for her to have any future marriage relationship with me that she would need to feel the need that her and I are growing…..that even then, there may still be in the end her desire to leave and separate the family. That her hurt may be too much to get over. She does not believe I can change or make the changes necessary for her to have an emotional connection with me. That she hopes she can somehow find the connection but not sure if she can. That she hopes things can work out but not sure. That she will not contact old BF and that she says she hopes she can get over her feelings for him. However also says that even if a R with him were possible….that she does not desire one. Finally even though she thinks she wants out….she is still unsure…has dropped the negative feelings but still experiencing hurt.

MC looks at W and says is this all true? W says yes and then gives the Ghost metaphor from above.

I then state my position that I will continue to work on myself. I am going to live in the moment and have a positive attitude. Will work on our friendship and try to provide her space, non-pressure, and an atmosphere for healing. That I will continue to do my own soul searching and become a better husband and father with or without her in my life. I will continue to show a caring love and work on balancing affection and loving ways with stepping back and not smothering or clinging. That everything I am saying is without the guilt and remorse I had experienced during the first few weeks of our situation.

In no particular order the following items are discussed:

W described why she felt a separation was necessary....to be on own, to be free, to work on healing self, to have her own things, can be free from me and situation to determine true feelings. W painted a picture of herself in a 3 BR condo having the kids during the week and me having them during the weekend. Of course we would all get together for dinner or I might take one to Boy Scouts. Then her and I would date and maintain friendship and she would have the chance to see if being away from me would help make her want to be with me.. She tells MC that I have agreed that if we had the money we should do it. I jump in and correct her. I have said that if that is the path she chose....then I would have to accept it but I will not encourage it. I do not like the idea but cannot stop her if that is what she truly wants but it is HER moving out and the kids stay with me. I say that it does not even matter if we talk about this because it is not financially possible unless W goes to live at a friend’s house. W does not want to be separated from kids though and wants them to live with her.

I give examples of how we can look for opportunities to gain some space and not put pressure on her. I go through all of my examples (A few here on Board called me out for trying to fix). MC then summarizes what she is hearing and says to me....."You are acting desperate. Doing whatever you can to keep her in the house and not to leave". Then says to W..."It sounds as if you are just trying to have H work on self so that he can be stronger and allow you to walk out and feel better about yourself". W says....well it would be irresponsible to just leave him. I still care about him." (I had long suspected that she was just biding her time to leave and then would say she did all she could do). Anyway I look at W and say "it was irresponsible for you to "leave" our marriage and not tell me for 7 months." W says nothing.

MC asks W what is going well at home right now. W says that she likes getting home early from work to spend time with the kids by herself before I come home. She also says she enjoys seeing her friend next door and having a drink once in awhile to get out of the house. MC then asks what is not going well. W says lack of intimacy and affection and it is a shame that she has a husband right there. That she is either not interested in getting that from me or says I cannot provide it….something like that but bottom line is that husband right there and cannot get that. MC gives her stare down and it was an uncomfortable pause. Not sure if she said anything else. I think it was at this point she might have said that the situation at home and that she cannot heal with me there and her in the same environment where so much hurt and pain occurred.

W says it is the little things that she thinks is making a difference. I tell her that I enjoy doing nice things for her. I have a caring love that I would like to expand on but holding self back. I am doing these things sincerely and do not expect her to do anything but enjoy until she feels able to reflect the actions. Her offer to work on our friendship and to become good friends is as much as I can ask of her right now. I tell her we are starting over. I wish to rebuild a relationship after it has now been blown up….from the ashes. I tell W that I know she has said she moved on and does not want to turn back. I am not asking her to turn back….just slow down or wait for me to catch up and then maybe we can move forward together. I say that I am not looking to go back to that relationship. I am not going back to that old H.

Finally….I tell W that Sep and D that at the very least we owe it to the kids to try and work out our difficulties before going to that level. W launches into this thing about her vision of D and Sep. So at that point MC turns to me and asks me to repeat back what I just heard. So I look at W and say....you just said D could be a beautiful thing and that the kids would be able to adjust with no problems and no scars. That we would maintain some sort of close friendship and that this would be a learning experience for the kids to see how two people can still work through difficulties. Then MC looks at W and asks if that is what she said. W looks at me and can't speak...."uhm".... So I say would you like me to repeat that? So I do. MC looks at W and says….W, is that what you said?” W says “I never said beautiful”. That is true but I tell her that is how it came across to me. W then says she never said it would be easy and may be very tough….not sure even how rough it would be on her. She then asks about being friends with me no matter what happens and I tell her no....that I am not mad at her....but any friendship beyond being cordial could not happen the way she envisions it.

Well….those are the highlights. At end we make an appointment for next week. Agree to not talk about D or Sep or other issues outside of the sessions at this point. We walk outside. I say to W “boy that was tough”. She stops as I keep walking and says “come here”. She then gives me a long, deep, and strong hug. We then leave and go get the kids for pizza. Have a great time and then do not really interact all night. She goes into BR with D and I take one S and watch Batman Begins. It is a connection time with kids we have not done in 8 weeks.

Last night W really kind of ignored me all night….I basically left her alone. She went to bed early but did not really fall asleep. I watched a movie with the kids.

DMB

[doing my best]

So for the next 2 days W is at beach by herself. Yes....that was one of my Mr Fix-it ideas to give her some space. She loves the beach and we have not taken advantage of that over the years living so close. So she is there for 2 days for some alone time. Sunday after church I head up there with the 2 youngest kids to spend the night and then return Monday.

W has often said that she wants to go to the beach....stay late and not feel the pressure to rush home....have a picnic on the beach...play football with the kids on the beach until dark. So we are going to try and have some fun and do those things. Of course I am doing it for the kids so they can have a great time....if W wants to participate, all the better.

Just one of my 180 behaviors. Normally I would have been too uptight to relax and live in that moment. But not this time.

DMB

[doing my best]

SECRET LOVE NOTE EXPOSED due to INTEL

Yes....I went into my W's bag that she takes back and forth to work and did further intel gathering.

OMG!

Sunday night at the beach I saw love note and fantasy plan with OM. It was an actual plan that she drew up with a fantasy life of her and old BF. It actually had a house described, curtains, paint, fireplace. She wrote that "We will call it our Love Shack". She also wrote about her having a Mustang convertible and then some stuff regarding Maui.....digitizing some photos to send to each other, and a place in Kentucky called Rough River. Also listed was "OM = income. Me = $XXX per year". It looked like a plan for eventual escape for the both of them.

Told wife I saw notes. W at first looked at me like she had no idea what I was talking about. Then I got more descriptive. She said "Oh....those are old notes from early on". She says that it is not any plan and is her way of trying to "purge her feelings" and release old BF. W says she just writes what is on her mind and does a lot of doodling. She says she was writing down the life that they had talked about many years ago. However, for her to list his income and her income potential is odd to me. No plan...really? well this guy is unhappily married so who knows what is happeneing on his side.....

I apologized for my intrusion into her private notes. She did not even seem upset and remained calm and cool.....the same way she interacts with me at most times....almost aloof.

Went through her Google phone. No contact with OM since MC sessions started. But her history of his FB photo page had been heavily visited during the 2 month contact spree.

For some reason I believe the emotional attachment was one-sided. I do not believe that old BF was falling back in love with my W as much as she was falling for him. Sure....he is a guy and I imagine he was very flattered with her attentions again and perhaps played on it a bit. My guess is that he may
have even fantasized. But I do not get the sense he was in the same "fog of emotions" W was in.

We shall see. Going to bring this up in MC session tomorrow and have asked MC for help in hitting this and exposing it as much as possible.

DMB

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Tell her, in MC, that you feel that her keeping the love note from OM is disrespectful to your marriage, and that you need her to dispose of EVERYTHING that she has that has to do with him.

DMB, she is still CARRYING THIS AROUND WITH HER. That's just hurtful, and a good MC can show her how this is not only what YOU need right now, but it's also not helpful for her OWN healing.

So much for her using her time at the beach, and her "space" for any serious self-reflection. Intead, it's "Gidget Loves Tony" high-school b.s.!!

Puppy

[doing my best]

Thanks puppy. Have already sent email to MC about that.

Today at 4 PM is joint session. If anyone sees this post and wants to comment on my position statements below, please do so.

MC will probably look at W and say so how is it going or how was week? W will probably say...."things have not changed. I still want to be out on my own and not into ANY relationship. I want to heal myself and just be with my kids. There is too much water under the bridge for us to reconcile. Too long in an unloving 18 year marriage. I now have my confidence back and I feel good. I do not want to give this up. I do not want to feel that someone is trying to control me anymore so to be on my own to do what I want is what I want. He is an Unemotionally Available person. I need to grow and cannot be in that type of toxic situation. H is a nice guy and a good father. But he is who he is and cannot change."

My position or opening statement:

W and Dr. MC....I am doing fine, in fact great. In a lot of ways I feel better than I have in years. 10 weeks ago...almost 2 1/2 months ago, W told me that she was not happy in our marriage. She laid out a number of reasons and since that point we have had numerous intimate conversations where I bared my soul and emotions...literally ripping myself down to try and figure out what was wrong with me and what I needed to do to work on MYSELF. Yes I use the word intimate because it is an area that I have never given a chance to come forth and experience….and I like it! Anyway, I heard W loud and clear since this was the first time she had ever vocalized her displeasure with our marriage. Immediately I took the most tangible behaviors that were repelling and hurting W and family and stopped them. It has been 10 weeks since I have used any profanity, controlling behaviors, angry outbursts, and negative comments....and it feels good. I have embarked on a true soul searching path and have opened myself up to the fact that the conditioned personality who was me 11 weeks ago is not my authentic self. I have released many of those unloving behaviors and accepted new loving behaviors to make a spiritual connection with myself and others. I have done a series of experiments and personal benchmarks and feel that I have been re-born in many ways. I like who the authentic self is and I feel great in that regard. Given everything that has come up over the past few months I think that I am doing surprising ly well. My guess is that others in thos position would still be in a fetal position and perhaps paralyzed by fear and dread.”

Regarding W’s new assessment that I have Emotional Unavailabilty syndrome and/or the fact that she does not want to drop defenses to invest in our relationship again for fear of being sucked in and then dumped on again (NOTE to Board….I have already said much of this. Looking to perhaps say it again with counselor to see if she will seize an opportunity) :

“W…I understand even more why you are wary of allowing yourself to drop your defenses. Please know however....even though it may seem so.....I am not pursuing you. I am pursuing myself. I am pursuing knowledge and experiences which will help me to reconnect with my authentic self. Yes...it is tough because I do want to save our marriage and our family, keeping us together.
However, my challenge....I am trying to balance or replace that "goal" with a more spiritual position.”

Several weeks ago I began relaxing my position. I called it stepping back to give you some room. It does not mean I have given up what I want....but I have tried to remove the ANXIETY about what I want. That is why I have said several times in conversation that I am without guilt or remorse when I make comments or share my thoughts with you. I am being sincere and it is coming from deep down. Please know that is with continually monitoring of my thoughts in meditation to make sure that it is NOT ego pretending to be soul….I want to be authentic It is difficult but with effort it can be done and gets easier every day.

Regarding W’s position that I just want to stay married because I would be embarrassed to be divorced. That I am afraid of being alone:

“W, I still have my desires and strong intentions....however, I am trying NOT to attach it to an outcome. Once again a difficult proposition but it is something that I continually try to remind myself. I have noticed that when I attach to a desired outcome, is when fear enters the picture and fear is paralyzing in many ways…can stop us in our tracks. It makes me protective and less flexible or open. It is something I have battled for years as you know. So the position which I have been working towards (and I have verbalized this to you in a variety of ways)is that I trust the best outcome will emerge on its own....not trying to force or manipulate it. My struggle everyday is to balance keeping my intention strong yet relax....have patience and work on spiritual connectiveness with loving behaviors.”

Regarding W’s comments that she wants to be friends no matter what happens. Says she wants to move us right now towards building a good friendship and is open to that (To Board - I want to be friends because I know that is the next step and will increase our chances of reconnecting. She wants to be friends so that we can be split and still have a great atmosphere for our children):

“You and I have both seemed to have attached friendship to a potential outcome. If we can release that outcome and just work on the friendship....then it will be a pure and true connection. Well....at least that is how I can define it in the parameters of spiritualness

Regarding her determination to separate and move on (hoping MC will seize opportunity):

“W….I have told you that you can go if you want. I know that I cannot force you to stay or talk you into not leaving. However, I have re-thought my acceptance of your position to separate our family because I do not believe that you are making this decision without the influence and emotional connection you have experienced with old BF. I believe you when you say you have not contacted him anymore. I also believe that he is or was not pursuing you for a true relationship. I have also forgiven you for this EA. However, I still do believe that the EA you engaged in was much deeper than even I ever could have imagined. You have told me that he made you feel alive, happy, excited, and loved again. At first you thought it was the med increase but you know realize that he helped you see what was missing in our relationship. However, you continued to go deeper and deeper into this situation and for 2 months lived a life of deception and lies….things that are completely out of character for you. Will old BF may not be the problem for our marital difficulties, he is the most recent. I want to feel comfortable that you are free of the rationalization and fantasy which came along with your relationship. The “love shack” notes and fantasy life you wrote out and saved the other things you have said about him and your tendency to still list him in your notes is saying o me that you are still holding a candle for him….or you are going through a withdrawal phase. You told me that you have not done any research or reading on Emotional Affairs. But I have. They are very addictive and there are some very real physiological processes taking place in your body. I would at the very least like for you to read some of the things that I have read….and perhaps utilize Dr MC to determine the true nature of this situation. The behaviors you are strongly exhibiting are strikingly identical to a full blown EA. And not so much for me….but for our children and for yourself I ask that you have a clear mind and heart before acting upon any decisions.”

Let's see have I missed anything.

My best guess is that financially we could not afford to truly separate until Fall. So no matter what happens I will still have some DBing time....even if it turns into an LRT.

DMB

DMB

[doing my best]

Thinking about bringing her original apology email she sent and re-reading it to her. Want to know what happened here and why she has moved further away from me as she has freely admitted.

She did say this weekend she is at a crossroad and is looking for "a sign". Well....what about the many changes that I have done to myself and and continued to implement? There are a bunch of "signs" there.

********Sent to me May 26, 2010 after EA was exposed*******
Dear XXX (Me)

Thank you for your spilling you feelings out via the letters. I believe that you will try more than ever with our relationship; I’m just sorry that it had to get to this point.

I am so sorry about the added pain of my communication with XXX (OM). It just felt so good to have someone listen to me, ask for help and listen to my suggestions, make me laugh and he happened to come into my life when I needed it most. It was so easy to share with him because he knew me and was feeling pain like I was. I never meant it to get “out of control” but the phone calls and texting were too much and I apologize from the bottom of my heart. As I mentioned earlier, I did want to meet him for lunch…I wanted to see him after all these years. But now is not the time when I’m the most vulnerable…I just didn’t see me in this way.

I know you want to listen to me and make me feel special. I also know you can make me laugh. I just need this from you in a reciprocal manner; two way dialogue; a continuous discussion or joking back and forth…by being in the moment I believe these things can happen.

I feel like you have forgotten who I am. Let me reintroduce myself…

I love to smile and get one back and I love to love. I also have wonderful ideas that when put into motion can create some amazing things…I just don’t get to share those with you. I have my own opinions that make me who I am and sometimes they come from my soul and may not seem justified from an ego point of view. I like to be in the moment, be connected, as to not miss a single minute; there is less stress that way and it paves the way for magical times to happen. I also love to give, help, and support…that is who I am and I feel that I am there for anyone on this earth that asks or is in great need; when you give you get back 10x more! I believe that all people are good and that many times God gives us challenges and either we end up a better person for it or our soul quietly waits for another opportunity. Quietly is not always the best way…sometimes vulnerability can be good for it allows your spirit to speak its passion. It’s ok to share your feelings, XXXX (me)!

I want you to know that I am committed to working on our relationship. I do not want this to jeopardize our healing in anyway. Please trust in me that my communication has ceased, in all forms, with XXXX (OM). I didn’t mean to hurt you!!!!!

I don’t want another restless night like last night. Please forgive me.

Love,
XXXX

[doing my best]

Oh....and one more thing....wondering if I should take a stand with her on the re-writing 18 years of history. At this point I have agreed with her...not arguing but really...."nothing good" in 18 years?

DMB