tired of this

[A_goodman]

LRT,

Thanks for keeping up with me. I know you guys are right. I will rebouble my efforts in this regard. I guess all I can do is make sure I don't do it conciously, and try and be more aware while I sleep. I am not leaving my bed. So as long as she chooses to sleep there, I will have to be vigilant about this.

Thanks for the encouragement.

I know I'm a long way from the finish line, but how do you know when things start coming around? And then what to do with all the detachment? I guess that's a question for months down the road.

[DanF]

So ok you db jedis how long does it take to REALLY stop giving a rip?

It took me about a month after she actually filed for D. I didn't find this site until after that happened. I was a heavily pursuing doormat for 5 months and I made all the classic mistakes. She told me that I was smothering her, yet I kept spooning, hugging, kissing, ILY's, all of it, because I couldn't help it. I said I really want to ML and got back, I'm sorry, I just don't feel the same. It was pathetic.

And then I find out she is having an EA/PA (Don't know the extent, but think just EA) with another man. That helped explain a lot. I busted her with phone records and texts and she said she wouldn't talk to him anymore, but that was just a lie. Kept on and on.

Finally she told me she was going to file. A couple days of misery followed, along with one last apology. When she put down the retainer with the attorney, it snapped me out of MY fog.

Separate bank accounts, credit cards, everything. No more mr doormat. I still cared, and still do a little bit, but the more I learn, the more pathetic and completely wrong I think she is. It is just after a month since she filed and I am no longer afraid of losing her. When this started in January, I was absolutely distraught at the thought. This was really only my first serious relationship with a woman. It is all I have known for my entire adult life.

Obviously, the timing will be different for different people, but you will get there eventually.

Take heart! If I can do this, so can you.

[A_goodman]

Dan,
You were the first post I read. Your title is what hit home the most. My boys are the only reason I am still holding on. But I still miss the love I thought we shared. I apreciate the response. I'll keep working hard. That's the only thing I know to do. At least here I've learned to do work that might actually work. Maybe.

Funny, it almost seems like we're all in this together.

See you pard.

[A_goodman]

Dan,

I forgot to ask, how are your kids holding up? They're around the same ages as mine. I just don't know what to do about that. That is the one thing that is consistantly making me feel hopeless and distraught.

[luvless]

DanF - I can so relate to your post here. It's very close to my experience and time frame.

It's been hard as hell but I'm getting much better too!

[A_goodman]

Ok. I’m calling in the vets. I need help figuring out what to do. Last night, W handed over her “Whats wrong with R” manifesto. It’s a list of her “concerns and grievances with the R as she see’s them”. It was bedtime and she threw it on my side of the bed after I worked out and showered. I asked if she wanted me to read them then. She said she didn’t care, but that she did NOT want to discuss it then. K. So I read it over. Twice.

The list is split in three categories titled: KINDNESS (22 items), FORMATION ISSUES/CHANGE (30 items) and GOALS(16 items). Did I ever mention that she’s very thourrough?

Anyway, as hard as it was, I told her: “Thank you for sharing this with me. Some of the items on the list I can see right away and I’m sorry for hurting you. Some of the items I need to think about. I will study this and myself and try to address those things when it is appropriate to do so.” She told me she e-mailed it to the MC. I said that it would definitely keep him occupied as it is a long list. (I didn’t do it in a smarta$$ manner hope she didn’t take it that way.) She said she wanted him to have it so he could be prepared for the next session. I told her good night and rolled over. Did not get to sleep for a long while though. I knew last night that I had to get advice on this before saying anything more.

Then this morning a curious thing happened. As I was leaving, she stopped, looked at me in the door then her face got cold and she walked off like she was really mad. I turned after her and asked if I had made her mad in some way. She was mad, but just said: “No. I’m fine”. Totall BS, but I let it drop and said: “Ok. I’ll see you later”. WTH was that all about? She told me not to discuss it with her and I didn’t. I don’t know what was expected of me. Is she just perplexed and angry that this did not get the rise it always would have in the past, or is it that she was just putting on a tough front, but was really crying out for me to engage her and talk about it? I am totally unsure of my self now.

A good part of the list was totall BS. I am going to have a hard time agreeing to a lot of it. Hell, I feel very strongly that I should defend myself against SOME of the accusations on that list. If somebody in any other walk of life handed me a list like that I could NOT let that stand as some kind of twisted written record. These are accusations of physically fighting her and her fearing for her physical safety and that of the kids. That is absolute poppycock. I have NEVER touched my wife, or any woman for that matter, in a violent or confrontational manner. And my kids, AYFKM? I would lay down my life in a nano second to protect those little guys. Is this some kind of list she plans to use against me in court?

Heck, except for my initial rant on here, when I vented 4 months of bile and poison that had built up, I’m not even an angry man with you guys. It’s totally anonymous. If I had it in me wouldn’t you expect it to spew forth here? The ONLY thing on the list concerning the kids that I can see is that she thinks I am “using them as emotional pawns to beat her up with and that I am threatening her with their happiness.” The REAL truth is that I have from day one of this constantly reminded her (now only in MC) that they will be hurt by D. I am not saying that to “beat her up” or as an emotional threat. But rather to remind her that there is a lot at stake in her decision. She used to believe like I did that kids are ALWAYS better off with BOTH parents in the home. Now she spouts all the typical plattatudes about how “they’ll be alright and probably better off”. It’s a load of bunk and she knows it. Or at least the girl she used to be knew it. It’s not a tool im using to win her back. I’m not sure I want her back. It’s just the scientifically verifiable truth. I think it is a form of calling her on her BS. Am I wrong?

The rest of the KINDNESS list is chock full of “controlling” and “domineering” buzz words straight out of the WAW playbook. Today I studied it more. I truly looked into myself and can outright agree to 3 of the items from KINDNESS and will cop to ½ of five others. Half because either it was two pronged or because it takes two to tango. 8 of them I need clarification or just have NO idea what she’s talking about. The rest are TOTAL BS and in most cases projecting by her.

14 of the FORMATION/CHANGE items I own in whole or in part. Some of those are ancient history about dating and the engagement and I have apologized profusely for 17 years. A lot of them are about her new need for space and those are already fixed as I am detached pretty well. Still, there are a LOT of questions in there.

The GOALS are mostly good except they are mostly open ended. i.e. she could achieve them by just bugging out. None are goals specifically for our R. No surprise there. Two of them play into the fear thing again. She is “tired of living in fear of me.” And “wants to know the kids are safe”. This is tearing me up. If she REALLY feels this way, I’d like to know what alternative universe she’s been living in. Here in the reality world, there has never been anything to prompt fear of me.

To be honest, more of her gripes seem to be on target if the R is viewed only in the context of the last 4 months. But it seems like she’s painting the whole R in that light. I guess that’s no surprise either.

Oh. One more thing, she says she’s "been grieving the loss of a close emotional intimate R for OVER 9 freaking YEARS!" (Emphasis mine). It’s funny. I read over the “W” file in my e-mail box @ work today. A lot of what sounds like love in there.

So NOW what. How do I read this morning? And what to do about the list. Should I own what I own (and try to change those), then ask for clarification on the ones I don’t understand fully? Which can lead to trying to control my emotions cold because I don’t really know exactly what she will say. What about the ones that are bologna?

I can validate my butt off, but I can’t wrap my mind around agreeing with some of those things. I’m certain we will be taking it up in MC (the only place any R talk happens. I will keep going because I want to find out what it is she wants to do and don’t want any surprises. Plus she is a therapist in a different field, so she views it as a “safe environment” to discuss things) I need advice so I can start rehearsing my lines.

Funny, almost none of her original grievences made the list. I’ve been 180ing a bunch of stuff that still needs to be done (which I am not going to quit either), but might not be a huge factor in her mind.

Everyday it’s something else. And then I end writing another damn book.

[robx]

share the list, I'm interesting in hearing what she had to say about you ;-)

[MakingProgress]

I'm not sure which Patricia Love book discussed the fear/shame dynamic, but it's worth learning about to get a better working knowledge of how women and men think and are motivated differently. It may explain some of the things we find confounding. Below are some useful links.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/200811/the-fear-shame-dynamic

http://www.danmetevier.com/files/Top_10_Differences_Between_Men_and_Women.pdf

[A_goodman]

MP,

Thanks for the links. The second one won't open here at work. The first one was very interesting. I can understand the Fear thing on an abstract level. The psychology/physiology behind that seems solid and makes sense to me on that level. But seriously, where does empiricle proof fit in?

Fine to say: yes he's a big strong man and I'm a 120 lb woman, so when we are arguing, his deep resonant voice and physical bulk intimidate me, but when does the mind overide that and say: "You know, I've known this man for half my life. He's not going to harm me. He's a big old teddy bear and wouldn't hurt anybody". Or, "I've seen him stand between REAL danger and our kids without a moment's pause. I KNOW he will never, ever fail to protect them.

BTW, she has always been the more vicious and aggressive in our arguments.

Don't get me wrong, I will use this theory to try and validate her feelings, but while I tell her I understand them, I really feel like eventually she needs to take some responsibility for not thinking critically about this after all these years of consistant proof to the contrary.

And it makes me very sad to think that the one person I've cherished more than myself could really feel afraid of me.

[A_goodman]

Robx, do you really want to see the list? It's a LOT of typing man. But if you think it will help you and the others give me a clue on how I should react, I will hammer it in.

Do you want my gut reactions on all of it too?