tired of this

[InLikeFlynn]

Did you confront your wife about your looking at the statements and that she really didn't deposit her check?

[sandi2]

I don't have much time right now, but I will get back with you again. Respect is at the top of the list, IMHO. The way we women are wired....we cannot be sexually attracted to our H if we do not respect him as a man.

Being passive, trying to keep the peace by letting her have her way is NOT the way to gain her respect. She will continue to push your buttons.

You do not have to raise your voice or get physical or anything like that. You speak with a firm and controlled tone of voice. You look her dead in the eye as you speak.

I am going to give you the link to the thread discussing boundaries b/c this is one of the most important DB lessons to learn. Your W must respect the boundaries you set. Boundaries are not threats. Think about what you will not live with any longer and what the consequences for her will be if she breaks that boundary. If you set one.....you better back it up or all is lost.

Here's the boundaries thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1859179#Post1859179

[A_goodman]

Sandi,

Thanks for keeping up with me. I read the Boundries thread. good stuff. R2C had the point that I keep going back to. That being: every time he's angry, he starts searching for a boundry that he SHOULD have set. Upon reflection, I can see that I have never set proper boundries with W. Actually, taking from another post, I expected the well understood boundries of the marriage vows to prevail. Somebody there posed that those are boundries that we impose on OURSELVES voluntarily. Never thought about it from that perspective.

Of course, the corellary to the anger = lack of boundries is that if it doesn't produce feelings of fear, then it probably isn't a boundry. I think I have understood that in the proper context. If so, then the things that I would like to set forth MUST be true boundries, because they are making me nervous. not neccesarily because of the boundry itself, which I want very much, but rather because I can't see a way to set the consequences anywhere short of "this thing is over".

Personally, I would actually look forward to a reprieve from all this and feel like I would fare better without her now. But I have children that didn't do anything to deserve this and I don't want to accelerate this. How do I make the boundry and not jeopardize their security in our family. I've always been willing to gamble if the stakes were high, but not with their welfare in the pot.

[Coach]

I know I need to controll my emotions always in this.

You make the dialouge about behavior that is unacceptable to you. It's not personal.

You have no transparency in your marriage. You both need to trust each other on what, where, who, when and why you do things. Your wife is lying to you, she has in the past and will call you controlling (BFD)when you go to set boundaries on her behavior. If she doesn't like it then it time for her to go - go read the "Setting them free" thread.

[Coach]

How do I make the boundry and not jeopardize their security in our family.

Boundaries actually make everyone more secure - you, your wife and your kids. You are living in a world without them. How secure does your family feel?

Your wife actually really wants you to stand up to her CB, she can't be attracted to you until she respects you.

[sandi2]

First of all, you cannot allow her to control you by cracks she makes regarding controlling behavior, etc. You cannot sit back and allow her to treat you badly and not say anything b/c you don't want her to get angry. She will get angry....count on it. But, you will live in spite of her anger. The goal is to get the respect back where it needs to be. Once the respect is in the R, then the anger will calm down.

The way I see it, the very first boundary should be no open M. No third person allowed in the M union. If you read the boundaries thread, then you have your examples as to how to state that in a sentence. It is what you cannot live with. It is how it makes you feel. If you turn it around to be about "her" then she will attack.

You cannot live in the fear that she will leave you. That shows through loud and clear. You must have the strength to look her in the eye and tell her that you cannot live with infidelity in the M(including emotional affairs) and that if that's not respected then she will have to leave the home. BTW, never hint that she will be allowed to take the children with her. Dads get 50% custody these days. In some cases, he may get more.

She must agree to transparency in her emails, FB, TM, etc. Nothing should be a secret. If she feels the need to have "privacy" then something is not right. Don't let her pull that card. Don't let her use "He's just a friend" card either. That is all BS.

She needs to agree to stop contacting the opposite sex in private conversations while the MR is on such shaky gound. You may feel differently about that, but that's MHO. She is too weak and vulnerable to emotional affairs to be able to withstand temptation at this point. Her track record proves that.

If you will stand firm in what you say and how you say it....then that puts the ball in her court. If she's not willing to cooperate then she needs to leave. Not you leave the home....but her. That's what she needs to realize. If she believes that you will no longer allow that behavior from her then she will begin to feel strangly respectful. But you will have to prove you mean business. If you do not enforce the consequence (which would be her leaving) then there is no boundary....and no respect. Boundaries are all about respect in a M.

Call her out on her verbal put-downs to you. Don't allow it. Think of an example that could be played out...and how you would handle it. One thing for sure, she'll see that you will not turn a deaf ear and let her vent her bad or rude behavior on you.

When you say something to her (like calling her out on disprectful attitudes) then do not wait around to see what she's going to say or do. You turn and exit. Leave her standing there with her bare face hanging out. Hang up the phone if she's yelling. Get the picture? You will no longer allow her to talk down or treat you like a doormat.

If she stays out until 3:00 a.m. then turn all the lights off (inside& out), lock the doors and turn over and pretend you are asleep. Do not show her any response when she comes stumbling into the house. If you have to pretend you are asleep, then do it. Next day....you don't even make mention of her night out. Maybe this sounds confusing but you've made a statement to her by turning out the lights and going to "sleep". Do you see that?

You keep a firm, tough-love, hand in the R, but at the same time you do not allow her to push your buttons. That is kind of hard to do,but you can actually become amused by it at times. You will gain so much self-convidence when you see that you can do this.

There is a lot to say, but I'll stop for now and let you digest a little more.

[sandi2]

Okay, so I'm not quite finished. Just wanted to say that you don't use a "divorce" as a consequence to everything. But with the open M, etc.,that would clearly be the consequence. But you wouldn't say that if she made a snide remark some day. You would call her out on the snide remark but you wouldn't tell her to hit the road. Am I making any sense?

There is a list of some do's & don'ts if you are interested in how to act while DBing.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

[A_goodman]

Ok, I was too busy yesterday to post. Wanted to update my sitch. We had therapy as scheduled Tuesday night. It was interesting. I think I am finally turning a corner. Anger is falling away and Sadness is not as crushing. I know it’s probably temporary so I'm not getting used to it, but it has been a far less stressful couple of days.

There is much to tell about the session. The MC wanted to start with the EA from 3 years ago and how it affected us, but I needed to say something first. After our previous session, we had a fight because I had mentioned in session that I felt like this was going to be HER decision. She was Incensed that I was blaming her for everything. So the other night I clarified for all exactly what I meant. I told them both that I felt equally culpable for our present sitch and that my point was that either one of us could choose to walk out on the family instead of work on our problems. I choose to try and work this out. So if she chooses differently, then she should own it. She says she will not accept that responsibility and protested that it seemed to her that I was trying to paint her in a bad light, or that she doesn't care about our family. So I countered that, since we are both part of the family, I could not see it any other way. I told MC that it was like two business partners. If one of them is willing to do the work to survive bad times, and one of them is looking to sell his share off, which one of them is MORE committed to the business? To me, it is black and white. I was not backing down and won't.

He asked her why it had bothered her so much and one of the things she mentioned was that I had acted like a jerk about it. I had to admit that during our argument I probably had been a jerk, (only because controlling my emotions the way I will need to is new to me). So I apologized for being over the line, but not for what I think is the truth. I turned to MC and explained that this was common. Every time I have failed to back down in the past, she takes it as me being a jerk. Which was my opening invitation to talk about my new favorite thing: Self Respect!

I told him that since the very beginning of our relationship, I have been a wimpy, pathetic excuse for a man. I had lost all respect for myself and thus it was little wonder that W felt little respect for me as well. So, when I did summon some backbone, it came across like me being a jerk. I admitted it had been a problem between us. W piped up and said that I have always been dishonest this way and that she was glad that I finally admit it. I agreed with her. And added that I know now how bad this is. I added that the fact that my “going along to get along” was not honest, was not the only reason why it was bad and the consequences are more than she probably sees. I said that I now realize that my behavior was a sign to her that I had no regard for myself or my own feelings and no self respect. I was acting totally out of fear of her anger and of losing her. That is why I reacted so emotionally pathetic when the excrement actually hit the fan both times. Now I realize that fear of losing something is no way to keep it AND be able to get what you need. And that I’m no longer willing to be that doormat. I will live my life in a way that is healthy and gives me joy. Unfortunately, the way things are now is not doing that for me anymore. I told her I love her, but was no longer afraid of her anger or what she DECIDES to do. I want to work things out, and try and rebuild our marriage in a healthy way and am willing to work hard on that, but if she is unwilling to do that, I am ready to go on without her. I think I paraphrased Gucci Loafer’s quote about agreeing with them and telling them “I deserve more and plan to go get it”. I also mentioned that whatever we make of this marriage, should we go forward, will be far different than it is now or was before. There will be some things that I will need (boundaries) for my own sanity and happiness than MUST be met.

They were both stunned a little. W didn’t know what to say, but that she was happy that I had grown. MC was surprised and said so. I told them both I had had a lot of time and motivation which I used to climb around in my brain. (I didn't give you guys the credit you richly deserve for helping me be "introspective").

So he directed me to explain what kinds of things I would want changed. I went back to what he wanted to start with. I said that he had asked the question: “how did W’s EA affect your relationship?” I felt it was time to lay out a boundary. I said due to that time in our R, I have lost all sense of trust in W. We have done not one thing to address this. She said this is the first time she has ever heard this. I turned to her and apologized for keeping that in. That it is a direct result of my past fear. When things got better, I never brought it up again. I told her that during the peaceful and happy time between then and now, I never thought about it and probably didn’t realize I was mistrustful of her. But that since Facebook and going out started, it has been a regular problem. Since this all started, I have been a paranoid wreck. And without being able to trust her, I don’t know if I believe anything she says.

She countered with “how can I know if you don’t tell me?” I owned that on the spot, but did mention that I mentioned early on that FB was a problem for me and that she was dismissive about that. I told her that there was absolutely zero transparency in our R and that I would never grow to trust her again without complete transparency. We talked about what transparency meant and she was aghast. She accused me of trying to totally control her and cried foul over the total lack of privacy it would require. I did not back down. I mentioned that I have read several books and done research on how to recover from infidelity and that is the universal solution to building trust back. I mentioned again that she was free to go, but that this was something I need to be happy and healthy.

The counselor was fascinated by my total change in just a week’s time. I said there was more, but we were out of time.
He want’s to explore the rest of my needs. Also why my W’s feelings toward me and our M suddenly changed back in March and also what needs she needs to be met before she can feel a commitment one way or the other. Should be interesting. It was eerie that I was able to stay calm on the exterior. My emotions were roiling, but about half way through the hour, I realized that I had zoned out and was able to think and speak clearly. I hope that continues.

It’s been so liberating not being afraid. It still creeps in, but only for the boys (which is still killing me) and in the unknown logistics. I am not afraid of losing her any more. She’s not been the lady I was in love with for some time, so if she goes, it will be a stranger walking out. I can honestly say, I hope we never are the way we were again. Hopefully, we can stay married, but not the same way. I want to be happy.

I can’t thank all of you enough for the care and tough love. I hope to one day make you proud! Sandi, Coach, Robx thank you especially for taking a direct interest in my plight and reaching out. I know it’s not over by a long shot, and that I’ll be back here often crying in my beer over how hard it is for a long time to come, but I m going to really try and keep learning.

Oh, I told her I knew about the money on the way home. That’s another book long post. I'll get that story out as well as what happened later that night as soon as I can.

Cheers.

[A_goodman]

OK, on to the money talk. After the session, I felt pretty powerful, so I just matter-of-factly said I know about the money. I told her that I went to the Bank and verified that she lied. After a slight pause, she told me “thanks for ambushing me. I hope you’re enjoying this”. I told her that it wasn’t an ambush. That I’d known for a couple of weeks. If I had wanted to truly ambush her I would have come to MC guns blazing. Actually, since, at the beginning she had warned me not to surprise her in session, she should be glad that I waited until now to bring it up. Anyway, I told her my point was that I knew and that it was contributing to my lack of trust.

She said that it was totally transparent and that she would be willing to show me the acct record. It was VERY difficult to contain my emotions. I think as-if was momentarily out the window. I said that it was NOT transparent in the least. It was deceitful and that I expect it to be put back. She was totally unapologetic and said she would not do that because she needed to feel safe right now. I think I lost it and told her that was total BS. (So, my validating needs work.) I said it was financial infidelity. She was getting angrier and angrier and I began trying to control myself and use “I” statements. She said there was nothing untoward going on. I told her that I could not believe that. So she asked what I thought she was up to? I replied that I had no idea and THAT was the issue. For all I know, you are saving up for an attorney, or have set up an apartment or are supporting some dude on the side. She was PISSED. She said that she would not let me control her money. HER money??!! I told her it was OUR money. We argued over that for a while. I did not back down. I asked her what would she do if I acted the same way? What if I took MY money out of the acct? How would she pay the bills? How is she now? She said that she is moving cash back into the acct as necessary to cover things. She doesn’t feel like this is wrong and that she has stolen from us. As long as we are married, our paychecks belong to both of us. And even if she is still paying the bills, she is denying the use of OUR funds to our family. She said we could have money if we asked her for it.

Then she shifted into how dirty it was for me to go through her purse. I told her that our checkbook belongs to both of us. It was right on top of the purse which was open. I felt like I had every right to look at it whenever I like. But after finding that the funds were not there, I did look through her wallet for receipts. I found a P O box number on a slip of paper which I asked her about that night. Stupid on my part. I hadn’t read enough on the forum yet by then. She teed off on my sneakiness and how she felt like I’d violated her privacy. I apologized for the purse part, but said that the checkbook was mine too and if she doesn’t want me to take it out of her purse then she should keep it in the open. She said it wasn’t supposed to be this way and I agreed whole heartedly. It should be open and honest, but there is nothing about this that proves that she can be trusted. Then she told me that she only lied because she felt frightened of me. WHOA. In 20 years, I have NEVER laid a finger on her. I was incredulous. She said she felt like her physical safety was in jeopardy. I asked her if I had ever touched her and she said that being a therapist, she knows that under extreme stress anyone can go off. It was 330 in the morning and I was angry, so she felt threatened. WOW. That hurt.

I just read through all this and realize it sounds like I am not employing DB teachings as well as I thought. All I can say is that during this I was still pretty calm, but firm. I told her that I could not countenance this type of behavior. That for me to feel like we are working towards something instead of just biding time until she has enough saved up, that it MUST be put back right. She jumped at the opening and said OR WHAT? So I took a deep breath and said “or you had better go”. That was a long pause. She said it looks like we might have an impasse on our hands because she will not feel safe any other way. She then told me that maybe we need to bring this up next week. So I agreed that maybe an ultimatum was wrong right now. To which she started trying to bully me. She said: “whatsa matter tough guy? You don’t want me to leave? What happened to all that “backbone” you were growing?” That was dripping with venom and derision. It was very difficult not to take the bait. I said: “No. My position is exactly the same as before. If this does not change, I want you to go. But I am willing to explore it in session and let you explain yourself. I know that we have more problems than just this, and I am committed to getting everything on the table and want to give you an opportunity to figure out what you need. But there are some things that must change for ME to continue to want YOU and this is a big one. WOW. Boundaries are scary.

Anyway, I went to pick up the kids from MIL. I made it a point to stay away for a couple of hours. Wasn’t sure what I would find when I got home. It was scary. But I realized my fear wasn’t about losing her, but about how to explain it to the kids if we show up and Mommy walks out tonight. Guess I better start planning in case I need to have that conversation at an unexpected time. Went home and W was still there. No suitcases out. And she was pretty cheery, considering. I busied myself getting the kids to bed and doing the dishes. Later she came to me in the kitchen and gave me a hug. A full-on long hug. No talking. It was the first real affection in months. And it felt really good. Her hair smelled so good. That’s weird, I know, but it was a physical reaction that I noticed. I had to finish the dishes and told her I’d meet her in the bedroom. We talked for about a half hour. It was calm and quiet. She told me it was a gutshot to her to find out that I didn’t trust her. She had asked me and I’d denied it many times. I told her that I was sorry for that. At the time, I really did think it was the right thing to do because I was afraid of losing her. I told her I’m not afraid any more. I said I was getting used to being alone with myself and that I would be ok. I told her I felt the same way to find out she was afraid of me hurting her. That has NEVER been me. I have never and will never hurt her. I told her that even if I hated her guts, I would never do that to the boys. But I understood it would take a long time for her to feel safe again.

I said that we had a lot of work to do, but that, for me, it was worth it to try. That I would work to meet her needs but that now my needs are the most important thing to me. I told her that I could not go on the way we used to operate. So in my mind, I have already closed the book on my relationship with her. It was a mostly good ride. From here we can just let that history stand on its own merits or we can start to re-write the ending a better way. She complimented me on growing and becoming more in tune with my feelings. It was a peaceful conversation. The first one in a long time.

Well, how am I doing so far?

[Ken62]

Hey AGM,

I'm not a vet by any means but I think you have been doing very well. The session was much better than the money confrontation but you held it together and stayed calm. I wish I would have picked up these things as fast as you did and was able to let go sooner and not be afraid of her reaction to things.

The only thing that really caught my attention was the fact that she talked about being afraid of you. My XW said this on several occasions and it made no sense to me just like you. I believe that this may be WAW script so that they can feel better about what they are doing. They need as many excuses as possible to justify in their PEA brains why they are doing what they are doing and they will come up with anything and believe it.

Puppy would know better if this is script or not. You can certainly validate her feelings. "I'm sorry you feel that way." but I think you can also reiterate that you have no intention of hurting her.

Keep up the good work. I think you're doing great!