I try to give her kisses out of the blue, and she looks at me like i have three heads, like it's really a nuisance. she never puts her arms around me whenever i try to kiss her, wrapping mine around her: i literally have to put them around me, and even then it's half-hearted.
Cozyp, these words and the others you have written make me think that your main problem is not your wife, it's yourself. I want to ask you some questions that sound rhetorical, but they are not. I encourage you to answer them for yourself and think hard about the answers. What kind of man keeps trying to kiss a woman who doesn't want to kiss him back? What kind of man has sex with a woman who does not sexually desire him? If you had an adult son in your situation, what advice would you give him?
When I read YoungAtHeart's posts, I always think that the sinlge most important thing he did to fix this SSM was not to find a sex therapist, read the right books, or say the right things to his wife; it was simply to decide that he owed it to himself to be happy, no matter what that entailed. Do you owe that to yourself?
I didn't find a good way of letting go of anger, at least not in some deliberate, reasonably quick way. What helped me was:
1. Do at least one complete 180. I took about three weeks off from trying to initiate sex or anything that might seem sexual. This is agonizing, less because of the lack of sex (think of it this way: what you're describing is completely unsatisfying sexually anyway, so giving it up may be surprisingly easy) but because of the fear that she'll settle in happily and enjoy the lack of "pressure" to have sex, but nothing else will change, and then she'll expect you to be nonsexual forever. That was not my experience, though. My experience was that eventually the stress of doing this 180 without telling her about it broke me down, I told her what was going on (because I was not strong enough to do it without showing her that something was wrong, and then it wasn't fair to keep her in the dark.) We decided to continue, and eventually we got everything else going.
2. Give it time. Anger will go away on its own as you begin to fix your life. The things you're angry about may get fixed, or you may come to accept the ones that can't be fixed. Either way, you'll have a lot less tension and anger to deal with, and that will give you energy to do even more. It will build on itself, but not right away. It will take time. Even now, if I go back and read about some of the things that made me so angry then, I can feel the tension return and the anger come back.
3. Venting here helps; just be clear on the difference between when you're venting and when you're asking for advice.
4. I think if I'd read Schnarch earlier in my process, I'd have done better. Scharch discusses the importance of "self-soothing" and how hard it is for someone who's looking for validation from someone else (like a husband who places his wife's arms around him to feel like he's desirable--and I'm not picking on you, brother, I've been right there with you) to do it. I sort of stumbled through trial and error, and when I read the Schnarch chapter on self-soothing, it clicked with me. I had done what he's talking about only a couple of days before, and later reflected that it had really been great to be able to take that anger and fear and deal with it (not put it aside, but work it out and be done with it) so my evening with my wife could go back to fun and romance. Reading Schnarch's book gave me a name for what I had done and reinforced its importance--and the fact that a lack of the ability to soothe yourself when necessary ties your hopes for happiness to someone else's willingness to soothe you. It's no way to live.
Out of all that, the hardest is to work at the 180s, work at getting a life, and GIVE IT TIME. You will want a quick fix. There is not one. After three weeks, I was asking how much longer this would go on; it turns out that three weeks was very fast progress and I shouldn't have been complaining. Good luck. Don't give up.
I think that I will have to put you into a group of mind readers who are on this forum.
You are probably right in the deciding I was going to be happy and in a sexually, emotionally satisfying relationship was a key step.
Although I would say that the other things allowed my wife an opportunity to change with me and for me to not fight with her, but instead make her feel loved and supported.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
180's are a great way of changing things, but they do take time. My two month sexual sabatical from my wife to allow her to learn to touch me, turned into three months and then there were two months of no-sex prior to that. I am not sure I would have had the courage to do my 180's had I known how long they took and how the timeframes (as documented by others on this forum) could have become years or decades. But when it was all done 5 months is not that long to save a marriage. During the 5 months and before that, it was hell, but that is another story.
Schnarch and the Passionate Marriage is an interesting concept/insight. The part about being true to yourself and the self soothing are all important, probably more important than I realized at the time.
Schnearch also kind of was scared me with some of the things he said in regard to marriage being a crucible that allows the best in you to painfully stretch to meet the mutual needs of you and your spouse. His view of marriage as a people/character building process is quite interesting and mostly rings true to me.
His whole marriage as a crucible concept is so different than the Hollywood "happily ever after" vision of marriage. After being at an ugly point in my marriage, I have much more respect for Schnarch.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Young at Heart, you're right. When I said 3 weeks, I was actually only talking about the time before I told my wife about the 180, which I had not planned to do. In my case, that worked OK. But it didn't finish the 180 and fix the problem; I probably spent about six weeks overall doing the no-sex thing. We were on a "schedule" of about once-monthly sex by then (always the day after her period ended,though she only recently admitted that--I still don't know why that was the shameful part for her.) The hardest thing was telling her "no" when that monthly night rolled around. It sounds simple now, but in that time of desperation . . . . and Cozyp828, that's why people are talking about how "lucky" you are to be facing being scheduled for twice-weekly sex. And there's some truth to that--there's nothing wrong with scheduling sex if that's how you get things going again. If you're getting connected during sex, she may find that her desire rises when she does it more. That means she's basically proposing the "just do it" approach herself. That's good!
i don't have sex twice a week; i only have it once a month according to her timeline. we have sex about a week after her period and as i said before, once she's satisfied, she's done for the rest of the month, and if i make any initiations, she automatically turns them down. this is how it's been for many, many years. if i was getting sex twice a week, i wouldn't be on this forum.
ok, so you guys are suggesting that i completely stop having sex for a very long time in order to turn it around, making her realize that something's wrong. i often thought about this, tried it once years ago, but she called my bluff because when i said no, she just rolled over and said, " no problem," then i couldn't take it anymore, and initiated, and then she played games by saying that she's no longer in the mood, etc. so that didn't work, and i've never tried it again.
i've been thinking about this and i think that i am prepared for this 180, because it's time that i start doing for myself. i ain't getting the quality sex that i want from her, or even the quantity; what have i got to lose? no sex? that's how it is now!
we haven't discussed anything about last week, she hasn't even discussed the websites i sent her about sex being fun, and healthy, and that she still has an issue, and i am not going to talk about it. she/we have been going about our business as if there is nothing wrong with our marriage. it is completely platonic: no discussions about sex, no acts of intimacy: we are just "being." no deep conversations about anything. i would always be the one to want to discuss about the lack of romance and intimace and sex, and now i continually deflect these ideas and feelings, and do my best to think about something else telling myself that it's not worth it.
also, we have always worn our wedding bands: i have never taken mine off. she has her engagement ring, her wedding band, and her diamond wedding band. months ago, i started to notice that she was sporatically wearing them, and now she never puts them on. when i asked her why she doesn't wear them, she said that they are too small. i have yet to see her take them to the jeweler. but if we go out miraculously, she wears one. that pisses me off, still does. a few months ago, i confronted her about it, and she got mad saying that it wasn't a big deal, and that if it was such a big deal, she would wear it ( but it was all said angrily). maybe the time wasn't right (before work), but why would she get so mad? because it's a power-play: i was asking her to do something she didn't really want to do and she wasn't going to let me get any satisfaction out of me winning.
this may be petty, but it's symbolic; it's a metaphor of what this marriage is: it's not about the sex, it 's about the person and how the person feels about the other, and how the person treats the other, and i truly feel that there has never been a real respect for me, for who i am, for what being married to me really means.
not wearing your wedding band not a big deal?! that was another slap in my face--just one of dozens of others (see my earlier posts from last year under).
i know many couples don't wear their bands, but that's usually agreed upon in the beginning of their marriage, but like i said, she never took them off until recently, and that bugs me. she still doesn't wear them--only if we are going out. i don't think she even puts it on when she gets together with her friends. i will have to check next time. but i know she doesn't wear it to work anymore.
i know that i am over analyzing and will stop, because it's a negative vibe, and i really need to focus on me.
i will stop having sex with her. it's going to kill me, but i will do my best to become celibate with her and only be platonic.
she's probably going to be happy that i am no longer bothering her, but then she's also going to think that i am having an affair because this is so out of character for me. she's going to also give me the third degree about why i no longer want to have sex.
i don't have sex twice a week; i only have it once a month according to her timeline. we have sex about a week after her period and as i said before, once she's satisfied, she's done for the rest of the month, and if i make any initiations, she automatically turns them down. this is how it's been for many, many years. if i was getting sex twice a week, i wouldn't be on this forum.
ok, so you guys are suggesting that i completely stop having sex for a very long time in order to turn it around, making her realize that something's wrong. i often thought about this, tried it once years ago, but she called my bluff because when i said no, she just rolled over and said, " no problem," then i couldn't take it anymore, and initiated, and then she played games by saying that she's no longer in the mood, etc. so that didn't work, and i've never tried it again.
i've been thinking about this and i think that i am prepared for this 180, because it's time that i start doing for myself. i ain't getting the quality sex that i want from her, or even the quantity; what have i got to lose? no sex? that's how it is now!
we haven't discussed anything about last week, she hasn't even discussed the websites i sent her about sex being fun, and healthy, and that she still has an issue, and i am not going to talk about it. she/we have been going about our business as if there is nothing wrong with our marriage. it is completely platonic: no discussions about sex, no acts of intimacy: we are just "being." no deep conversations about anything. i would always be the one to want to discuss about the lack of romance and intimace and sex, and now i continually deflect these ideas and feelings, and do my best to think about something else telling myself that it's not worth it.
also, we have always worn our wedding bands: i have never taken mine off. she has her engagement ring, her wedding band, and her diamond wedding band. months ago, i started to notice that she was sporatically wearing them, and now she never puts them on. when i asked her why she doesn't wear them, she said that they are too small. i have yet to see her take them to the jeweler. but if we go out miraculously, she wears one. that pisses me off, still does. a few months ago, i confronted her about it, and she got mad saying that it wasn't a big deal, and that if it was such a big deal, she would wear it ( but it was all said angrily). maybe the time wasn't right (before work), but why would she get so mad? because it's a power-play: i was asking her to do something she didn't really want to do and she wasn't going to let me get any satisfaction out of me winning.
this may be petty, but it's symbolic; it's a metaphor of what this marriage is: it's not about the sex, it 's about the person and how the person feels about the other, and how the person treats the other, and i truly feel that there has never been a real respect for me, for who i am, for what being married to me really means.
not wearing your wedding band not a big deal?! that was another slap in my face--just one of dozens of others (see my earlier posts from last year under).
i know many couples don't wear their bands, but that's usually agreed upon in the beginning of their marriage, but like i said, she never took them off until recently, and that bugs me. she still doesn't wear them--only if we are going out. i don't think she even puts it on when she gets together with her friends. i will have to check next time. but i know she doesn't wear it to work anymore.
i know that i am over analyzing and will stop, because it's a negative vibe, and i really need to focus on me.
i will stop having sex with her. it's going to kill me, but i will do my best to become celibate with her and only be platonic.
she's probably going to be happy that i am no longer bothering her, but then she's also going to think that i am having an affair because this is so out of character for me. she's going to also give me the third degree about why i no longer want to have sex.
what do i tell her then?
Guys... I woke up today in an old mindset. First of all, all the questions and situations we pose here are demasculating to post them in the first place, and its demasculating to have it on your mind.
If a woman is yours, or a man for that matter... They will leave no doubt in your mind that you are of prime importance to them. So the sex-rate while it may not be exactly to your standard, it will be close, this once a month crap would not exist.
A spouse or long term gf would do niceties for you such as cooking, being sweet for you, helping out, thinking about you and showing how they do it. A woman wants her man to feel like a man, and they would leave no doubt in their mind by their actions that you are their man.
There would be none of this adhering to the other parties rigid schedule and rules.
Anything outside of this, is not tolerable.
Now I'm starting to remember when I was in and coming out of college... I had alot of female friends, so I got to see some of the things they rationalized and they did, from their point of view.
One lady I knew, her thing was she'd get these boyfriends, but they weren't really her boyfriend. She'd feed them enough scraps not to leave, but she would treat them like crap and ignore them. This was not her real life to her. Her real life was the guys she pursued and played with outside of the relationship. She would bring people around the "boyfriend", and ALL of them knew and where closer to the female than the "boyfriend". Actually I'm sure many of them sexxed her more often, and knew her deepest and innermost secrets. She painted that "boyfriend" as gay, and while I know he wasn't gay - it sure made him look more like it.
One of the signs of this... Now I remember. Females like this COMPLAIN all the time about their relationship partner. They COMPLAIN to the people they are "with". So it may be a social group, it could be all females and she's not doing penetrative acts with other males - but the "boyfriend" is getting emotionally raped.
A woman or MAN for that matter, will take a bullet for the one they truly love. They can be injured, and will still go out of their way to please that one they love, there will be no excuse. Occasionally, since they are a human, they will think about themself.
Most of us on this board, are with people who have either made themself "SINGLE", or really are WITH SOMEONE ELSE. This is the reality.
Now I stand by my old mantra. If your not screwing your own wife, someone else likely is. Sorry.
Things in life truly are usually simple. If you have a relationship partner who is with you.
You will:
1. Be treated well, or at least as well as they know how to. 2. You will have cooperation 3. You will FEEL loved 4. You will have a descent sex life, or they will be working on improving themself 5. They will not "bad talk" you very often. 6. They will leave no doubt in their mind that they are with you. 7. Also, you WILL be able to hurt their feelings
With the right lady and man for that example. The president could come to meet your family, and you will have not a single insecurity, because your spouse will make sure you are well represented. They will present a front with you as their spouse.
It pains me to read some of the stories here, and I know I've done my contribution. Some of these cheatings and affairs, do go back to high school and college ways of dealing with people. The way its done is an immaturity behind it.
Oh by the way. I remember that being with someone who isn't with you makes you LOOK GAY.
I also read that a woman in an affair due to psychological components starts a demasculization process on a male. It really does take something from you when you are cheated. It could be that she doesn't want to be with you, and not doing the physical act yet... Its the same thing, you are missing alot of yourself and in life.
....i've been thinking about this and i think that i am prepared for this 180, because it's time that i start doing for myself. i ain't getting the quality sex that i want from her, or even the quantity; what have i got to lose? no sex? that's how it is now!
...also, we have always worn our wedding bands: i have never taken mine off. she has her engagement ring, her wedding band, and her diamond wedding band. months ago, i started to notice that she was sporatically wearing them, and now she never puts them on. when i asked her why she doesn't wear them, she said that they are too small. i have yet to see her take them to the jeweler. but if we go out miraculously, she wears one. that pisses me off, still does. a few months ago, i confronted her about it, and she got mad saying that it wasn't a big deal, and that if it was such a big deal, she would wear it ( but it was all said angrily).
.....i know that i am over analyzing and will stop, because it's a negative vibe, and i really need to focus on me.
.....i will stop having sex with her. it's going to kill me, but i will do my best to become celibate with her and only be platonic.
....she's probably going to be happy that i am no longer bothering her, but then she's also going to think that i am having an affair because this is so out of character for me. she's going to also give me the third degree about why i no longer want to have sex.
what do i tell her then?
A couple of suggestions. First read up on 180's go to the 180 portion of this website and read about some of the ones that seemed to work for people. Make sure you understand what GAL really is about as that is going to be your focus if you stop having sex with your wife. All that anger, extra energy, etc. needs to be focused into something beneficial for you.
Remember that you can not control or force your wife to do anything. She is the only person who gets to change herself. You can offer her opportunities, support change, ask for change, work with a sex therapist to initiate change, etc., but she ultimately is the one who needs to take responsibility for what she does and for her own happiness.
I would sit her down at a time when she is not stressed and willing to listen to you and tell her that her not wearing her wedding rings is important to you. Tell her that you would like to set up a time for the next weekend when the two of you will go to a jeweler to get her rings resized, because it is important to you. Then if she says no, just tell her that you are disappointed in her, and then drop the subject and don't fight over it.
If in figuring out what kind of 180 you are going to do the change the dynamic between the two of you, make sure you have a really good reason for it. When what you do or how you interact with a spouse doesn't produce the result you want, it is time to change the way you act. That is what a 180 is about. It is sort of a trial and error sociological experiment where you see how different approaches to interracting with your wife result in a different response from you wife. You try a 180 for a while, see if it produces a desired result and if it does you keep it. If it doesn't you try something else.
When I told my wife that I wasn't going to have sex with her until she actually showed me she wanted to have sex with me, it was because sex with her had become a very unhappy emotional interchange, that to me wasn't worth the pain. After we had sex or while we were having sex, she would say or do things to make me angry and start a fight. I decided that I was going to take charge of my being happy. I was no longer going to rely upon my wife making me happy. I deserved to be happy.
My wife was thrilled with my statement and didn't believe I was serious. I was very serious. At times I told her that is she did something that showed me she wanted to make love to me, I would have sex with her. She asked what I meant. I told her that she knew the kinds of clothes I liked her to wear and the things I liked her to do to arrouse me. Sometimes I got explicit and told her if she would model a new dress she had purchased for me before bed and take it off infront of me, that I would make love to her. She would never do anything like that, so we didn't have sex. I knew that if I had sex as I had done with her before, she would hurt me emotionally and I would feel worse for having sex than for not having sex.
Others on this forum told me that I had given my wife an excuse to never have sex with me again. They effectively told me that I have "blown it" and was not likely to either lead a complete life of celbacy or need to divorce her. What I knew was that I did not want to expose myself to being hurt by her like that again. I also knew that if I was successful in my GAL changes, I could divorce her and find another woman who would provide me with the physical and emotional love that I needed (although I really wanted her love).
Later she accused me of trying to engage in a power struggle to control her. Each time, I told her she was the only one who could change herself. Each time I would not let her get to me or make me so angry that I verbally lashed out. I can't tell you the number of times, I looked at her and asked myself if that was a serious question she was asking or if she was just trying to pick a fight as fighting or avoidance had become our "normal mode of interaction." A 180 is designed to change normal modes of interaction.
There is a lot of interesting literature on setting boundaries and enforcing them. I suggest you read up on boundaries also.
Another 180 that I did about the same time was to show her love and make her feel loved in her primary languages of love (quality time and acts of service/devotion). I did this without demanding anything from her in exchange for what I was doing. At times after sereral months I wondered it I should keep it up, but I was starting to see some changes in the way she reacted from this. I also would touch her head/back/neck and hold her close when she needed comforting, but I would make sure there was nothing sexual about it.
Later when I told her that I needed to be touched and she told me that the reason she didn't touch me is that it always lead to sex, I told her she didn't need to worry about that for two months as there was absolutely no way I was going to have sex with her. I told her that I was going to deny myself something that was really important to me so that she would have the emotional space to explore touching and learn to touch my body. The two months turned into three and she still to this day she is inhibited about touching me, although she now finds having sex two to three times a week easier than touching me affectionaly at other times. She still only touches me (for the most part) when we make love. So I go get a theraputic massage at least once a week so I feel like I am getting the touching I need. It has done wonders for my posture and unknoted muscles in my shoulders and back. I am going to make sure that I get what I need in life. I will also respect my wife and try to make her happy and give her what she needs.
As to being given the "third degree" and figuring out what you are going to tell her. Tell her that you are now focused on becoming a happy better individual and you are not going to let her or anyone take your health and/or happiness. You are committed to getting a life and enjoying that life (if that is how you feel). Tell her that you would like her to be in that life with you, but it is her choice.
Tell her how you feel, but don't get angry at her, don't blame her, just focus on what you are going to do to make yourself happy. You can tell her that you are unsure of if your marriage is making you happy or not, and need to figure that out. You can appologize to her for probably having hurt her and tell her that you don't want to fight with her or be angry at her any more.
Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
....A spouse or long term gf would do niceties for you such as cooking, being sweet for you, helping out, thinking about you and showing how they do it. A woman wants her man to feel like a man, and they would leave no doubt in their mind by their actions that you are their man.
Now I stand by my old mantra. If your not screwing your own wife, someone else likely is. Sorry.
Things in life truly are usually simple. If you have a relationship partner who is with you.
You will:
1. Be treated well, or at least as well as they know how to. 2. You will have cooperation 3. You will FEEL loved 4. You will have a descent sex life, or they will be working on improving themself 5. They will not "bad talk" you very often. 6. They will leave no doubt in their mind that they are with you. 7. Also, you WILL be able to hurt their feelings
With the right lady and man for that example.
....It pains me to read some of the stories here, and I know I've done my contribution. Some of these cheatings and affairs, do go back to high school and college ways of dealing with people. The way its done is an immaturity behind it.
...I also read that a woman in an affair due to psychological components starts a demasculization process on a male. It really does take something from you when you are cheated. It could be that she doesn't want to be with you, and not doing the physical act yet... Its the same thing, you are missing alot of yourself and in life.
Interesting. While I don't agree with some of your points, I saw some interesting posts elsewhere about women cheating on their men.
There was a study done (in the UK if I remember correctly) with DNA to determine how many children were biologically the product of the wife and her husband and there was a surprising high number (between 10% and 20% if I remember correctly) what were the product of a woman's affairs. There was a post about a woman who wrote about (I wouldn't buy the e-book) affairs and the stages of anger that women have.
I found myself saying that my wife had exhibited many of those same stages of anger and emotional withdrawal, but then again, at the time, my wife could not get naked in front of me and did not like being naked even briefly to or from the shower, so I felt she couldn't get naked with someone else.
While I am not sure I would agree with you that "...If your not screwing your own wife, someone else likely is..." I would say that it does happen, probably more than most people realize and that most men will delude themselves and deny it is happening when it is obvious to others.
In reading about othes, I have been amazed at the number of couples that survive an affair and use that as a way of rebuilding a marriage. Until I read about it, I thought that if my wife every had an affair, I would "kick her to the curb" and tell her to get out of the house. Now I think it is a much more complicated situation and I can understand others who stay married even when trust has been betrayed.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
