Near WAW with EA - almost textbook sich

[doing my best]

OK....wow....got it. Puppy thanks.

New mindset to work on....

No more separation talk with me telling her that I will accept her decision. Cannot fuel this fantasy esp since we cannot afford it. Will tell her that really is off the table and need no need to discuss.

No more "fixing" her. Was not my intention. Was tring to offer solution alternatives to give her some space. Did not realize what I was doing here with fixing. Thought it would be helpful.

DMB

[Puppy Dog Tails]

DMB,

In the past six years, I have studied literally THOUSANDS of affairs. And they all follow one of only a few basic SCRIPTS.

In my experience, "I need space" -- 90% of the time -- means "I want space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered."

90%.

If only the wayward spouse WOULD use a time of separation for serious introspection, ICing, and getting their own chit together, uninfluenced emotionally (and even physiologically!) by OM, they would be far better off.

Do some reading of Greek's posts about "Big-Girl Panties" -- BGPs. It's time you let your wife put them on, and wear them herself, if this is what she wants.

Puppy

[doing my best]

Puppy in regards to MC she is pro-marriage and only believes marriages should end if there is abuse. However she has discussed sep possibilities with W and myself seperately and feels that if done right can be healthy but is ONLY a step if D is definitley in the picture.

W does bristle when I bring that word up and does not even think that we are close to that. So....who knows. really looking forward to joint session today at 4 PM EST. Will post more after that.

My brother-in-law who has known both of us very well for 22 years and is psych teacher feels that W must have support system guiding her. Does not feel that she is strong enough to do this on her own. I do know it is not MC and she tells me that she has not told her sister all of the story. So yet another nod towards old BF....

So 2 possibilities here....she either really has broken contact and is just hold a "candle" for old flame, living off memories and fantasy created before bomb dropped. Or...she is still in contact with him and he is her support system. Emboldening her and confusing her feelings and emotions.

Thanks you everyone.

DMB

[Puppy Dog Tails]

So 2 possibilities here....she either really has broken contact and is just hold a "candle" for old flame, living off memories and fantasy created before bomb dropped. Or...she is still in contact with him and he is her support system. Emboldening her and confusing her feelings and emotions.

AGREE -- the symptoms are the same in either case. That's where your intel comes into play.

Puppy

[doing my best]

Intel....yes. Can't get that from her work desk phone or work email. I could always just call the guy and ask him if he is still maintaing his commitment to keep distance. 50/50 shot. If he has been in touch and I am right....will blow lid off situation. If I am wrong....could destroy any future progress with W.

Will probably just sit back and see if MC can add pressure and open up the damage an EA can do to a person and a spouse. She trust MC and listens to whatever she tells her to do.

DMB

[Coach]

My brother-in-law who has known both of us very well for 22 years and is psych teacher feels that W must have support system guiding her. Does not feel that she is strong enough to do this on her own. I do know it is not MC and she tells me that she has not told her sister all of the story. So yet another nod towards old BF....

old BF = life boat

W does bristle when I bring that word up

DMB = ocean liner

When you remove one of the options she has to be all in somehwere.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Intel....yes. Can't get that from her work desk phone or work email. I could always just call the guy and ask him if he is still maintaing his commitment to keep distance. 50/50 shot.

No, it's a 1/49 shot. Predators tend not to tell the truth about their preying.

Puppy

[doing my best]

Just so everything is clear with timeline. W says she hit rock bottom with our M in Fall of 2009....Oct/Nov. OM did not show up on FB until early March. Their first contact happened late March and continued until May 25. I actually saw the first email later as she had failed to delete it. He is unhapplily married with 3 kids and lives 1000 miles away. She did go near his hometown on a trip and she mentions something below. He actually is physically abused by wife. Apparently they have their issues. As a fun note....here is the email she sent me the day after first MC and discovery:

************

Dear XXX (Me)

Thank you for your spilling you feelings out via the letters. I believe that you will try more than ever with our relationship; I’m just sorry that it had to get to this point.

I am so sorry about the added pain of my communication with XXX (OM). It just felt so good to have someone listen to me, ask for help and listen to my suggestions, make me laugh and he happened to come into my life when I needed it most. It was so easy to share with him because he knew me and was feeling pain like I was. I never meant it to get “out of control” but the phone calls and texting were too much and I apologize from the bottom of my heart. As I mentioned earlier, I did want to meet him for lunch…I wanted to see him after all these years. But now is not the time when I’m the most vulnerable…I just didn’t see me in this way.

I know you want to listen to me and make me feel special. I also know you can make me laugh. I just need this from you in a reciprocal manner; two way dialogue; a continuous discussion or joking back and forth…by being in the moment I believe these things can happen.

I feel like you have forgotten who I am. Let me reintroduce myself…

I love to smile and get one back and I love to love. I also have wonderful ideas that when put into motion can create some amazing things…I just don’t get to share those with you. I have my own opinions that make me who I am and sometimes they come from my soul and may not seem justified from an ego point of view. I like to be in the moment, be connected, as to not miss a single minute; there is less stress that way and it paves the way for magical times to happen. I also love to give, help, and support…that is who I am and I feel that I am there for anyone on this earth that asks or is in great need; when you give you get back 10x more! I believe that all people are good and that many times God gives us challenges and either we end up a better person for it or our soul quietly waits for another opportunity. Quietly is not always the best way…sometimes vulnerability can be good for it allows your spirit to speak its passion. It’s ok to share your feelings, XXXX (me)!

I want you to know that I am committed to working on our relationship. I do not want this to jeopardize our healing in anyway. Please trust in me that my communication has ceased, in all forms, with XXXX (OM). I didn’t mean to hurt you!!!!!

I don’t want another restless night like last night. Please forgive me.

Love,
XXXX

*********

After this email I became very insecure and whiny/beggy/ILY man. I believe things went from bad to worse in those 3-4 weeks as we rehashed the past and laid everything out on the table as much as we could. I then ran into this site....got the DR and DB books....and changed my entire approach. It has now been only 3 weeks with me trying to implement DB techniques and mindset.

DMB

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Just so everything is clear with timeline. W says she hit rock bottom with our M in Fall of 2009....Oct/Nov. OM did not show up on FB until early March.

And what did she say to you in the Fall of 2009, to let you know of her unhappiness? Did she sit you down and share her concerns with you then?

For the record, re: the "back-dating" thing. Some cheating spouses lie about when their contact with OM/OW started, but more often, they lie about when they say they were "done" with the marriage, emotionally. Or at a minimum, they never adequately conveyed the depth of their unhappiness to their spouse, who then later gets blindsided by the affair.

Manipulating these two dates -- when they were emotionally "done" with the marraige, and when they first behaved inappropriately with their OP -- is the basic foundation upon which the wayward spouse will build their entire "compartmentalization" paradigm.

Put more simply, it's how they justify their destructive decision-making and behavior.

Puppy

[Greek]

So this is where we are

W says it is important for me to understand where she is and that she has a lot of hurt from our 18 years together. Sees nothing good from past relationship. Says she is looking for spiritual soul growth and believes we were put together for a reason but thinks that it is time to move on. No growth opportunities. Is glad to see me growing and changing but thinks it may be too late for us....however, not sure.


Says she wants love but does not think I can provide it to her. I say that I could provide that love but have been holding back while I reassess my feelings. I say that I feel something such as caring love but need to make sure my other feelings of attraction to her are real and not based on fear of loss. I do love her but do not want to say yet. Although I do tell her I think I love her.

W says if we could afford separation then she would leave today. Not divorce but a chance to be on her own. Wants to stay in town and set up a structured sep like a divorce. Wants to have kids during week and not leave them. Says that she still has a lot of hurt and pain seeing me everyday when I walk in door even though no more angry outbursts and disrespectful comments. Feels scars of unemotional relationship with me and believes only solution is to not see me everyday. I have offered separation opportunities but not sure if that is good enough.

W says it is the little things that I am doing that make a difference but does not believe that I can truly change after 22 years. Believes that I am who I am with my inability to show/share emotions and feelings. I tell her that I would love to show and share now but do not want to smother her.

W has no emotional connection to me. Says she has dropped the resentment and hate but now feels nothing towards me and does not understand why any positive feelings have come in to replace the negative. Believes that she is emotionally spent and has nothing more to offer our R and M. Says she is not willing to gamble that I can find my soul and reconnect. Does not want to expend any energy on me but wants to use that energy towards working on herself. Says that I should continue working on myself....she continues working on her self....she will commit to working on R but needs me to understand that possibility for her to also leave in the end if she cannot get feelings back are very real.



She is pretty determined to continue path out door. I thank her for giving me another chance and that working on our friendship is all that I can ask for now. I am glad we cannot afford a separation but I do tell her that if I could I would allow her to leave and accept her decision. She is happy that at least now "I get it".

I have bolded some points in this post that I think are very important for you to know about the person you have been married to for 22 years. It is NOT all that is at play right now - I read about the OM/old BF - I'll get to that in a minute. As I see it, you have to have two things going at once here. You have to SEE/HEAR/BELIEVE and LIVE what she is telling you (bolded). I recognize many of these things from my experience and I'm telling you, she's not messing with Sasquatch here. These are the real symptoms of a person who was replaced by a wife, mother, housekeeper, family accountant, nurse, doctor, cruise director, secretary... I read in your later post the letter where she introduced herself to you. Please, spend time in thought about this idea of your wife feeling she needed to introduce herself to you. It matters.

So that's one thing.

But at the SAME time, you cannot suffer any foolishness with this OM business. That needs to be over, transparent and no more sniffling about carrying the torch for him. Married adults may remember an old flame with fondness - but Big Girls know that the old BF ain't saving the day. He's in the past for a good reason.

What you don't want is to be caught in the LIMBO of "DMB, I want to leave for all the reasons I told you...but I can't b/c <fill in the blank>." Your position should be, "W, I hear you, I understand and I am sorry for overlooking YOU all of these years. I see you now and I want to work on my growth as a man who can partner with a woman. But if you feel you need to leave, that is what you should do. (This is where you make her put on the Big Girl Panties) Have you thought about moving in with a friend or maybe staying at a Residence Inn for as long as you can afford it?" Does she work, btw? If not, now is when you need to break it to her that she will have to have income to have this alone time. Otherwise, she's just whining and bringing everyone in the family down with her. Make sense?

Greek