Now, if you need further proof of what I mean by this, I can send you some sample emails between H and me - or the sample Dobson letter - to help gain perspective. The email I can send shortly but the Dobson book is on loan to my FT, lol. BUT... I can give you a good sense of it.
Having said alll of that, if you are not prepared for a big talk tomorrow - don't have it! Simple as that. Or - you can prepare yourself for it and just be ready - you DO have a choice.
I'll take the email you have as I think I may use it. I'm guessing she is coming home to pack her stuff for the big "Affair Holiday". Makes me sick to my stomach.
So, if she goes anywhere NEAR R talk, I wann drop the Dobson bomb.
And still sent the text on the drive telling her I know of the A.
A nice double whammy.
Since I have nothing to lose, I'm also going to call her mom and aunt. Warn them to watch her behavior and tell them that "though I love my W and I completely accept my 50% of the responsibility for the deterioration of the marriage, the reason our family will be destroyed is ONLY because of W's affair. If she stops it NOW, I may consider working on it with her. I don't know."
So anything Dobson-esque you have, I'll read and use with gratitude.
I came across this in my "Excerpts from this site" ( I call the document "Here")
Yes, I now see it. It isn't going to work. I now realize that you really don't love me. I now realize that you are saying that it just isn't there for you and you just don't feel the feelings you want to feel to be in a romantic relationship. I now realize that you believe that you may have NEVER been in love with me. I don't know what took me so long to understand that. It suddenly hit me that it probably irritates you to no end just to give me a hug. I NOW get it. I agree. It is never going to work when a person feels like that. It wouldn't be fair to either one of us. I am not even sure how I feel anymore about you after all that has happened. And I deserve a better relationship than this. From this point on I promise you that I am going to stop trying. I should have realized this a long time ago."
Thanks in advance and I appreciate you recent increase in posts to my thread.
A 180 for me (and back to who I was when we got together) was a touchy, cuddly, happy guy.
So detaching and being withdrawn is who I became and that's who she isn't in love with. So the 180's for me (getting back to who I was-open, funny and touchy) conflicted with the instructions to be mysterious, absent and detached.
And if there wasn't an OM, I could easily hybrid more along the Greek and Coach agenda. But the OM and A make Gucci, Rob and Allen seem the right call. And the hybrid of hardball is Puppy but I think he's tired of my sitch. Frankly, so am I.
Well, these things are complicated and take time...they don't resolve overnight and we all go through a myriad of emotions in the process. One night we are feeling good and confident and crying the next... it's all part of the experience, unfortunately. Seems to me Puppy just doesn't get around to things as much, I don't think it's a personal slight, but just my opinion. The only person I have heard from consistently in my sitch is Allen - and he's been a great help! (Not complaining.)
I will post my big email back/forth from H next. Warning - it's long! LOL. And - I will admit it was from before I found this site or read DR. Plus, it is possibly a little softer than others may suggest. However, I had no proof of any kind of A but the start up of an EA, I believe. H actually sent me a text meant for an old GF to me by mistake after weeks of "ILYBNILWY" and saying he thought he wanted out. Also, at the time I didn't know anything about exposing. SO: take it for what it's worth. I'm pretty proud of the way I handled it, overall, considering I had no help with it. :-)
To add (before posting the email) I know it's hard to show the 180 and try to be the warm guy when you're also supposed to detach and by mysterious! I've found ways to pull it off, but it isn't always easy to know what to do in terms of specifics. (One of H's complaints against me was that even though I was not a nag, I snapped at him and the kids too much and did not show a lot of patience - that I was depressing to be around or complained too much.)
I've just found ways to be happy go lucky without necessarily being so directly to him - just as Allen has suggested. I laugh with the kids a lot and am affectionate, and bring them drinks or offer to do things for them... laugh on the phone or just smile - hum, sing in the shower, stuff like that. When I do talk to him I act carefree but I'm not doting over him. I signed up for classes and post on FB about how excited I am to be doing new things... The thing is, I'm not just faking it either. I really DO feel happier and more like being this way, so it comes across (hopefully) as genuine and not an act.
To set this up, H emailed me after a few days after the text finding incident. His original email is in black. My replies to him are in blue. Then he replied in red, then me in green. SO...try to keep up! LOL He sent this on a Tuesday after I had gone to see FT on Monday. My current writing will all be in purple. This is probably more "conversational" than yours will be, since he initiated the process, but hopefully you will get an idea of some things I did right (or wrong!)
Looks like you have been doing some thinking this morning...or last night...or whenever. I have been thinking as well. Anyway, you can see my comments below, in blue.
Hello,
We haven’t talked much and I was happy to have a low stress day yesterday. Me too. I’m glad you saw a councilor yesterday and that you can see change is possible. I’m sure you knew that but it’s always nice to hear it from a professional. Gives a person hope. :o) Well, it was very good in many ways. I don’t know what to tell you about us. I do love you and I enjoy sex with you a lot. The thing about sex is that it confuses issues. Things have been so intense lately and that makes sex intense. I can’t just go back to how things were 40 days ago. I am changed. I feel different about things. I have different needs and feel less patient about some things. You are right. It does confuse things. Mainly because you had told me several weeks ago that sex was basically "just sex" yet you understood it meant more to me...that it was emotional. Not saying that I have felt that things were "fine" because we had sex...but it does mean more to me than just a physical act and you are aware of that. It is a way of reconnecting and yet, I knew it wasn't a cure or anything like that. I like having sex with you as well. Yet, afterwards, it is even more isolating to me. Unless two people are totally committed to a relationship, sex should not be engaged in. Of course, there is a part of me that thinks, "What's wrong with two married people finding a way to feel good about each other," so it is confusing. Mostly, I feel it is an intimate act. I guess intimacy should not be forced. I wasn’t saying intimacy was forced>. :o)not what I meant to say. I just mean that intimacy should also come from ways other than sex and that sex is then a reflection of that intimacy. I wasn't saying you were forcing intimacy or felt forced to have sex... If that makes sense.
I do understand what you are saying. I can't go back to how things were 40 days ago either. I am also changed. I also feel different about things. I want more for myself - more for the kids - more for you even. I can't say that I know exactly how to go about getting all of that but I am committed to finding out. With some things it is tedious. For instance, I can't go from being unfit to fit in a short period of time. It's a tedious process when you are where I am at. However, something like just choosing my words more carefully to better my relationships - and watch my tongue - is very easy to do: a quick change with immediate results. I’m sure your asking yourself, what does this mean? The truth is I don’t know. A large part of me wants to just start over. Make a place of my own and build my life with my security and still be there for the kids. I understand your feeling this way. It doesn't help that with your own family background that it's easier for you to cut loose and start over..it's not like you come from a very connected background. Not blaming anything on your family, just saying that is what has been modeled several times over. I can see that. I would be there for you too but it would not be the same. Maybe we could date or something? We need to learn to like each other again. I agree. We need to learn to want to be with each other again. I agree with this also. Not to just watch TV in the same bed. You are very right. We should be happy to be with each other when it’s just you and me and nothing is around to distract us. Yes, definitely. I’m not there now. I don’t enjoy alone time with you unless we are sleeping or having sex. Things feel forced or obligated and I am not going to reconnect with you under those conditions. Well, it is awkward for me as well because I have feelings to work through of my own. I do think I deserve to not be an obligation - and I don't want to be an obligation... And I want to be in a mutually satisfying relationship. No one can reconnect that way.That might not sound right. I’m not refusing I’m just saying it won’t work that way. Understand what I mean? I do. So, we can look at options. I’ve made a list below and we can discuss them or add others but this is just a place to start.
1: We just get divorced. We can still be great parents and be there for our kids. We can work together to meet their individual needs and be there to watch sports or whatever. You know this is not what I want. However, I have made up my mind that if this is your choice of action, I have to love you enough to let you go. I think back on when we first met and our happier years and I am reminded how you wanted to be with me of your own free will. I couldn't have forced it then and I can't now - not by guilt or twisting your arm or trying to bribe you in any way. Love, above all, is a choice - free will. Marriage also has to be a place of security. A place where two people have sanctuary against the world, with each other; not against each other. Family is "us against the world" not us against each other. Not that there aren't ups and downs or problems to work out in even the best of relationships - but I think you know what I mean: a soft place to fall.Well said
2: We separate and try dating. We could have a specific plan on when we go out and where we go. We could also have a fam night where we all go do something. I would stay close by. Maybe at marks apartments or something like that. I definitely think the dating thing needs to happen if we are to reconnect - no matter what. Separating is a big step, however. It usually is a way for someone to ease themself out when they know they just want to go. Once again, if this is what you want, I obviously have to let you go. If you need to be away from me that strongly, then, maybe you do. Dating would be great - but of course, you have to want to date for dating to be good. 3: I move into the home office and we give each other space. Well, I have been trying to give you your space. It's strange - I don't know how to behave around you. If I am happy - you take that as me thinking "everything is fine" and you have no patience for me acting like everything is fine - when you are thinking everything is not fine and you hope I am not thinking so. If I am more distant - then you say I am cold and I'm supposed to be nicer. If I give you your space then we are just roommates and not a couple. If I try and engage you, then I am trying to force you into an obligated relationship. You see what I mean??? I feel as though nothing I do can be right. It's either taken as a scheme to convince you of something or as an excuse for you to "move on". One time you are thankful I'm being rational and yet you'll make a statement such as I am not emotional enough over things. Please know I am not saying this to be accusatory.Just know that you can’t know things are ok until I tell you they are. Same goes for me until you tell me they are. If you understand that then I won’t think your thinking incorrect thoughts. :o) Same here. In all three options we both work on ourselves to improve things that need to be improved or fixed. And we do this not for the other but for the individual. I wholeheartedly agree with this. You cannot give to someone else what you do not have in you to give. Two people do not make a whole. Two whole people make a partnership. And no, that's not something I got from counseling yesterday - it's a conclusion I have come up with on my own of late. Nice
I would agree to go to counseling but not as a couple yet. I think I would need to deal with individual issues and feelings before I tackle all the stuff I feel about you. I wholeheartedly agree with this also. As I told you yesterday - and I meant it - I value you as a person, regardless of circumstances. I do think it's important to find the right counselor as there are many out there that aren't good. I personally wanted someone who is based on behavior modification, not just someone who wants to delve into the past and childhood and go into poor ole - no wonder you are the way you are - me type stuff. I know why I am the way I am. It's more important as to where I am going, not to where I came from. I just say that because there are different types of philosophies. I found someone through the counseling center at church. They are professional counselors - not just church people. There are several there. Of course, she did mention that I could always also talk to one of our pastors in the church but this is strictly professional counseling and spiritual things/mindsets can be considered or not considered - whichever.
Having said all of that, there are marriage type workshops that are not counseling but supposedly worthwhile. I will forward you something I was told to look into. Thoughts? I know I haven't been very insightful as to what to do, specifically, about things - just shared some thoughts. The fact is, I am not sure what to do, H. It depends on a number of things. You want space... space to do what? To get away from me? To come and go as you please to some extent, yes....to figure things out Yes... to have other relationships Yes, I need other relationships, deeper friendships with other people.... notto explore your options not sure what this means... to play Xbox yes no These are questions you have to answer to yourself firand not worry about problems??? no.These are questions you have to answer for yourself first and foremost. I do love you, yet I'm not sure what to do - how to be. This is hard - and I will be strong, for all of our sakes.There is nothing wrong with personal space yet there are boundaries. Such as, would I think it inappropriate for you to be out all hours of the night partying it up (not saying you want to, just an example) and live at home? Yes, I would think that inappropriate. Having drinks with co-workers after work, appropriate. Do I have a problem with you having friendships? No, not if they are appropriate friendships. If you want inappropriate friendships - and you know what I mean by that - then you shouldn't live at home as it is emotional infidelity, in my book, even if not acted on. Exploring other options I guess is just a way of saying more than exploring friendships, but other, possible romantic relationships. If you want to explore your options romantically, that is not condusive at all to working towards trying to reconcile our relationship. We both know that when you put your feel down a path towards someone else, it can in no way restore the marriage. Therefore, if that is something you want to explore - other romantic relationships - you should not live at home whether in the office or not, in my opinion. I would say that if the goal is reconciliation, all actions have to be toward that goal. However, I do not know if that is your goal.
And btw... I've seen that letter sample that you posted above, previously. I like the more original Dobson letters better, but that's me. I wish I had the book with me... I hate having to wing it. I'll try though! Some of my email is based on Dobson letters. Obviously a lot of it is a lot more personal, but I was trying to be the right mix of loving and tough. These aren't the exact things you would say to your W, especially in an initial confrontation/letting go with her. But - I am hoping it at least shows a healthy dialogue that is open, honest, yet shows self respect. Had I been on here previous to the email I probably would have gone a little tougher, but I don't regret anything in the email.
Has it helped my situation? I think so. Things have gotten better, as I've said. H is no longer acting suspiciously but he is not fully committed to the M yet or to attending MC. He treats me well but yet still is withdrawn... It's a start. At least he is seeing the newer me and acknowledges my changes. However, there have been no ILYs since this email... not yet.
Dobson's original letter would look more like something like this: Well, first, before I even start, this letter would come after you'd been showing a different mindset - got W thinking about where your head is at - that somehow, you're different lately...
Dear WAS,
I have been doing a lot of soul searching lately given our current circumstances. It's funny how when you feel you are losing something that you love, you behave in ways that are not always pretty. I was so afraid of losing you that I tried everything to keep you here: I pleaded, begged, got angry - you name it. I see now that it was not productive - not good for you, or me. After thinking on it, I realize that love must be free. When we married X years ago, I did not twist your arm or have to talk you into it. You married me of your own free will. You say you no longer love me? That you don't think you could ever feel that way towards me again? Well, I find that disheartening but obviously, I have to let you go. The days of me putting up with anything just to keep you here are over.
W, when we married I saw myself being married to you forever, growing old, playing with our grandkids... Obviously that was my dream. I never wanted a divorce. But now you are running around with another man, destroying our family and saying you want out? Well, that's your choice. If you want out, then maybe it's best you find another place to live. Maybe with X. I will miss you but I am confident I will be fine. I know I made my mistakes in this relationship, but I know I have always been faithful, and been willing to do the work to repair the issues we've had.
W, I wish you the best as I know now what I want in a R and deserve to have. I still can't believe that something that was once so beautiful has turned into something sordid and jaded. Perhaps in the future if you find that you want to turn this around, we can talk and I will see how I feel then.
Just for fun, I'm going to post what W originally sent me to drop the bomb. I reread it a couple of days ago and, despite the content I first got from it, I actually wish she was behaving as she sounded then as opposed to now. My current understanding was when she wrote this she was getting deeper in the EA. She likely began thinking of the EA in December. I think he was the tipping point.
April 24 "I guess we have always communicated best by e-mail or letters. It always seems to be easier to talk to you on a serious note, and tempers don't flare.
In the past 3 years our relationship has taken a hit for the worst. We have tried to fix it many times and it still is not ever where it was. We used to love each other, talk normally to each other. Since we decided to have Calla things have completely changed. You have said and blamed many things on our relationship. Your job, Reno's, your new job, the house, calla, money..... truth is these are all regular things in life. unfortunately those things have changed us and everything about us! I don't know what to do, we have tried to make this work, and tried to change it. I have different feelings for you. Feelings are something I cant change... I have tried. When I said that on New Years I figured you would understand due to our circumstances. I look thru some of my diary pages and noticed I have been unhappy for many years. I guess what I'm trying to say is we have both changed, we both have a beautiful daughter that WE brought into this world. I love you for that, I truly do. I am not IN love with you. I have tried very hard to get that feeling back.
Sept 23rd 2007 - diary entry: I think today is the end of my marriage to CD. We had a huge fight last night. This decision is the hardest decision I think i am making. I can no longer live, love, and be happy like I once used to ....
Jan 3rd 2010 - diary entry: Ok so I have told CD my feelings have changed for him, but I don't know what to say. I love CD, but I'm not in love with him anymore That sounds harsh.... I have fallen out of love with you... Our relationship priorities are gone... I need things you don't need...I need sex, love and desire. You have told me it will change many times. It has yet to change. I cant do this anymore. I don't think I want this anymore. The flame is burnt out. It crushes me this didn't work out, I never wanted this to end this way. Calla my poor angel, I feel horrible. I know you need to see me happy and I'm sorry I'm not. I think I need out to see if the feelings come back.
Dec 2009 Diary entry -
I have come to the conclusion, CD and I are in different places in our lives. I wouldn't change the past for anything and Calla was the best thing from it. CD and I were attracted to one another at one point, but back in 2007 things took a turn for the worst. CD would tell me he loved me,and I felt it. CD would tell me things to make me feel wanted, needed, secure. Those things are non existent now. I don't understand. What did I do. Why did everything stop. When I found out I was having Calla every things stopped. I cant do this to me or him, my feelings are gone.... what do I do pretend. I'm done pretending, I need to move on with my life. I don't hate CD, I never will.
CD I think we need to talk, I need your help as a friend. I don't want a fight or a yelling match, I just need you to understand where I'm coming from. I would like to hear your thoughts and feelings on this relationship and what we need to do. -W"
