A lot of what you're writing could easily have been me writing if the dates went back a little further. It doesn't have to stay that way. I'm catching up a little here (lightning took me off the internets for awhile) so bear with me:
1. It's SO hard to do this in the fog of anger and frustration you're in right now (I know, because I tried) but when the moment is all wrong and the mood is gone and the sex is horrible, that's a great time to quit and do something else. If you're both fumbling and it's just awkward as hell, seriously, that's the time to laugh as loud as you can at the ridiculousness of your situation, give her a kiss and a big hug, and snuggle in to go to sleep. She may laugh with you, or she may not. She may melt because you didn't try to force the issue, or she may not. But at least this way you didn't have terrible sex that you hate to think about. Now, if it's not working because she doesn't want it to work, the way you describe, she may be testing you, or she may just not want sex or you or touching or who knows what? Again, this is a lot easier to say than it is to do, but that's the time to let go of her, tell her you're no longer interested and break it off right then. You don't have to let her toy with you like that whether she means any harm by it or not.
2. You asked BPickle whether she wasn't contradicting herself by admitting that it took her husband announcing that he was leaving to wake her up. That could be, but I think her point was that if he had made that decision to share his desperation with her before it overwhelmed him, they might have been able to change it together. I was luckier than BP's husband; I found the SSM book and then this forum. I had always promised my wife (child of divorce) that I (child of long, happy marriage) would never, ever leave her no matter what. People here convinced me that I had no choice; I was furious all the time and deeply miserable, and I hated my marriage. It was killing me. I loved my wife with all my heart, but I was sure she hadn't loved me for years. In truth, I was ready to leave, but I had made promises. People here convinced me that I had to tell my wife the truth and find out what she would do about it. That takes more courage than I thought I had, because I felt like once I said it out loud, I would be committed; I couldn't just glide along and pretend I could make it anymore. I did not announce that I was fed up and leaving. I told her that I didn't want to leave, that I loved her, but I felt like she didn't love me and our marriage was failing, and that we were on a path to divorce. I told her that we had to make changes or I'd leave. She saw that I was serious, and like BP, it was like she could suddenly understand what I'd been saying for years. The problem is that if you don't find a forum of people to knock you around and convince you that you're being a pussy, it's incredibly hard to work up the courage to deliver this ultimatum--and because you've been explaining your feelings for years with no effect, it seems impossible that it will change anything anyway. But it just might. And if it doesn't, you're not in limbo anymore.
3. I would read the SSM book if you haven't, but now, a couple of years later, I'm reading "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch and I think it complements the SSM book well. SSM is the EMS approach--treat the life threats, maintain airway, breathing and circulation, and try to keep the marriage alive until you can treat it. Schnarch is more the long-term approach. I especially like the way he describes problems as being part of the stage you're in.
4. MWD talks about "Getting A Life." In other words, she wants you to get out and do things for yourself to increase your own enjoyment of life. Schnarch talks about self-validating--essentially the same thing, but his book is about three times as long and explains more of the reasoning behind why this is important. He explains that people who are "emotionally fused" depend on validation and esteem "reflected" from the partner they're fused to, which leads to being deeply in love but also emotionally disconnected--commonly expressed as "I love you, but I'm not in love with you." He makes a lot of sense, and that's a little worrisome, because although the book was written in 1996, I think a lot of therapists are still doing the opposite of what he advocates.
5. I would not assume she's having an affair unless she gives you some other reason to think so. An irrational, contradictory attitude towards sex doesn't require an affair to explain it (whether that makes you feel better or worse is hard to predict.) I sometimes think people leap to the conclusion that an affair is going on here because so many who post here have been through it that even people who have not suffered through an affair start to see them happening all around them. Try to find the balance between being blind (choosing not to see evidence of an affair) and being paranoid (choosing to see evidence where an objective observer would not.)
excellent advice! thank you! ironically, i have known most of these answers for years, and have practiced them, am practicing them, and still nothing works.
the next morning, i didn't say a word; i wasn't angry. i did send her like a dozen websites that address her condition and contradict everything she said about men wanting only quickies, but did not discuss anything, and she acted like nothing happened.
i didn't address the issue because: a. i am aaalllllwwwwaaaaayyyyssss addressing the issue; b. i am waiting for things to calm down; c. she alwaaaaayyyyyssss goes on the defensive and fights against my advice and solutions.
i've been fighting this battle for years! everytime i address the issue, we argue. she only agreed a few times over the years to change--which only lasted a week each and every time.
this nmmng book is not all correct. i agree with most of it like spending time with myself (which i do as often as possible with friends), or looking for acceptance through her by doing and saying things in order to get a positive return, but there are quite a few things that are totally off-base, such as holding a door open for somebody; not washing your car; trying to be completely different than your father; always putting yourself first (except if you have kids) before your spouse and others (what, if someone asks for help, or you want to do something nice for your spouse/friend and your doing it out of the goodness of your heart, that's a bad thing, because you're not putting yourself first? or if your wife needs help with something, and you don't really want to do it, but you do it anyway, that makes you a "nice guy" being taken advantage of?
i find it to be a very contradictory book at many times, but i do get the point, and have known about these remedies for years, and i have been performing some of them on a regular basis, but it doesn't matter: nothing works.
"I would like to share a few things that helped me. First I realized that "I needed to be responsible for my sexual happiness, and not rely upon my wife."
ok, if i can't rely upon my wife for my sexual needs, then who can i rely upon? myself? another woman?
Next, and this is probably the most difficult hurdle to cross, as much as she has caused you pain, you need to forgive her and let go of your anger toward her. If possible you need to work on letting go of your anger and showing her love and friendship. Your anger is ultimately going to hurt you and keep you from gaining happiness.
ok, this is all i pretty much do constantly!!! i forgive her, talk to her, tell her not to worry about it, it happens, and then move on, but do you think she understands what i am saying?! no, she doesn't, because giving or telling her that i forgive her only puts the ball back into her court and she says, "i win again!" so now i forgive her without saying anything about last night, or ever discussing the issue: i just let it go. is it right? no way! but my wife is a closed-minded person, never to take sex/the bedroom/romance/intimacy seriously. she thinks and says that it's just another way of getting her into bed to only have sex with her. meanwhile, i have been trying to do everything to show her that this marriage is not only about sex: being a teamplayer when it comes to the kids; conversing with her about everything in the world but sex; going shopping with her without the kids; going for walks; doing the household chores with her or even without her; doing everything and anything to uphold my responsibilities as a husband and father.
"Ultimately if you divorce her, she is and always will be the mother of your children. That means that no matter how badly she has treated you, the two of you will need to socially interact at times. For the sake of your children, you should try to figure out a relationship with her that doesn't involve open hate or anger. Letting go of your anger and figuring out how to establish a friendship with her will help a lot if you don't end up divorcing her, but rebuild your marriage."
i also agree about this part, because if we do divorce, i know that i am going to have to associate with her for the kids, and that i know that it has to be amicable. i do forgive her and always have, because i am the one who comes back to her, apologizes for some stupid reason ("nice guy" syndrome, but didn't do it yesterday,and haven't done it in a while--unless i really am at fault), and tell her to forget about it, and move on. she never apologizes for anything, and never says she's wrong even when others tell her that she's wrong.
"You are not being treated well by your wife. However, you need to let go of your anger. You also need to work on "getting a life" and focusing on taking charge of bringing happiness into your life. Use your energy to find things that make you happy. Allow your wife to change with you and be supportive of her and show her love and friendship."
i do let my anger go, and do push the reset button by "living and let live," and i do my best to "get a life," but it's hard with two kids. i do my best to do things for myself--trust me! focusing/challenging my energy on other things that make me happy is what i have been trying to do for years.
it's all up to her, and the way things are going and have been going, i will be separated probably by next year, if not sooner. i don't want to use the "we need to fix this marriage, otherwise we are going to divorce" line until i am completely satisfied that when she says "there's nothing wrong with, it's you!"--which is her line thrown at me in every argument--i want to know that i am truly going to pull the trigger this time. i did it once last year; we had a major fight, i packed some things, she got on the phone and called her friend crying what i doing, got her friend to stop me from leaving, things settled down, and she did nothing to change. it's as if nothing happened and she is still the same woman that i have been complaining about for the past 8-10yrs. i wasn't ready to leave: i held an empty gun,and my bluff was called. she didn't say anything positive like "ok, i'm gonna change, i'm gonna make us better, etc." all she did was nag me about why i wasn't now going, why did i change my mind?! she even called my mother to tell her what i was doing! but deep down i wasn't ready.
now i am getting closer to pull that trigger. she is not going to change--ever--and i now see it more clearly as the days progress.
during the work year, i will text her little lines of romantic stuff telling her how good she looked today and that i love her. sometimes i would get a response of thanks, or even maybe i love you too; most of the times i would be left hanging, and if i went back to the cell phone log, i could see that i may not have gotten a response from her, but i noticed that she responded to others instead of me (her response may not have been right away to others, but i would have been her last text, and i wouldn't get an response, but somebody else would. you just don't forget to respond to your spouse if he/she is sending you something loving, would you?
and this has nothing to do with the "nice guy" syndrome: it's just simple common courtesy and acknowledgement.
wouldn't you expect a response from fried, or even a "sorry, i'm getting back to you so late, but i was tied-up" comment? i wouldn't even get that, but she would send that to her friends! i'm just looking for some respect, and it's not there.
or how about when i do go out with my friends and i get like 150 texts from her: "sitting here at lax: bored; the spicket is leaking and it's creating ice on the driveway; son #1 got a failing grade today; son #2 is not listening to me; we have to go food shopping; etc." constantly texting me when she's alone with the kids. i don't go out very often, but when i do , i get these mundane, superficial texts! and the irony is that when she goes out, i try to do the same, and i never get a response until she's leaving and coming home!
thanks for your advice. i am taking it under consideration.
...this nmmng book is not all correct. i agree with most of it like spending time with myself (which i do as often as possible with friends), or looking for acceptance through her by doing and saying things in order to get a positive return,....
...i find it to be a very contradictory book at many times, but i do get the point, and have known about these remedies for years, and i have been performing some of them on a regular basis, but it doesn't matter: nothing works.
"I would like to share a few things that helped me. First I realized that "I needed to be responsible for my sexual happiness, and not rely upon my wife."
ok, if i can't rely upon my wife for my sexual needs, then who can i rely upon? myself? another woman?
...ok, this is all i pretty much do constantly!!! i forgive her, talk to her, tell her not to worry about it, it happens, and then move on, but do you think she understands what i am saying?!
..... i just let it go. is it right? no way! but my wife is a closed-minded person, never to take sex/the bedroom/romance/intimacy seriously.
...i also agree about this part, because if we do divorce, i know that i am going to have to associate with her for the kids, and that i know that it has to be amicable. i do forgive her and always have, because i am the one who comes back to her, apologizes for some stupid reason ("nice guy" syndrome, but didn't do it yesterday,and haven't done it in a while--unless i really am at fault), and tell her to forget about it, and move on. she never apologizes for anything, and never says she's wrong even when others tell her that she's wrong.
....i do let my anger go, and do push the reset button by "living and let live," and i do my best to "get a life," but it's hard with two kids. i do my best to do things for myself--trust me! focusing/challenging my energy on other things that make me happy is what i have been trying to do for years.
it's all up to her, and the way things are going and have been going, i will be separated probably by next year, if not sooner. i don't want to use the "we need to fix this marriage, otherwise we are going to divorce" line until i am completely satisfied that when she says "there's nothing wrong with, it's you!"--which is her line thrown at me in every argument
...thanks for your advice. i am taking it under consideration.
As with most books there are parts of NMMrNG that are better than others. Find the parts that work best for you.
As to being sexually happy when my wife wasn't available....Masturbation, reading books about relationships and sexual techniques (even when you have no one to try them with). A lot of the books have sections on self love and I took the time to learn a lot about what my body really likes and learn about what really feels good to me. Develop an active fantasy daydreaming life at home when you are alone. I also recommend some theraputic massage so that you get the touching a person needs, even if it isn't sexual, it still helps. And lots of exercise! Cold showers (joke!) are optional.
Your posts still sound angry. It took me quite a while to realize that I was part of the cause of my problems with my wife. I took responsibility for what I did (even though I felt what she did was worse, I realized that I was responsible for part of the problem and apologized to her for what I had done that had driven her away from me emotionally). Letting go of my anger was hard, but an important step. Admitting that I was part of the problem, but saying that I had changed and I wanted something different, made my wife realize that she could blame the old me or embrace the new me.
I think that you know deep down most of the things you need to do. The question you might want to ask yourself is if you are really ready to do them. To a certain extent both you and your wife have choices you can make to save your marriage or move toward divorce. You don't have total control over the outcome, nor does your wife.
I also think that Silly Old Bear (and others) has given you some great advice on things to think about. He gave me some great advice when I was in dispair.
When I constructed my time line for divorce, I found that in my state, there is a minimum 90 day waiting period (i.e. 3 months or more from when the papers are filed until the divorce is final). I figured that probably would want a 60 to 90 day trial separation before filing divorce papers. So I figured that if I wanted to be in a romantic relationship by a certain date to get the love I felt I deserved, I needed to plan on a separation about 6 to 8 months prior to my goal date and file divorce papers about 3 to 5 months prior to my goal date. I was surprised at how long divorce probably took to pull off and excluded things like selling assets and moving.
Good luck to you and your family.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
thanks! logically, i pretty much know about the self-love, and that it's a two-sided story as well, that she is not the only one to blame. i know deep down what i need to do, but am not ready for it(something instinctively tells me not yet, why, i don't know; it's for the kids' sake).
i know she's not going to change, and when i get the courage up once again to discuss this matter, i have to defintively turn around and pack my things when she says her usual "if you don't like it, there's the door" line. that has been said for years, and i just get all nervous and say that's not what i want, and start apologizing for bringing the subject up, as she walks away "with my head in her hand."
Someone who wants to be with you will never use this line on you. I believe you should prepare yourself so that the next time she uses this line that you can up and leave.
...i know deep down what i need to do, but am not ready for it(something instinctively tells me not yet, why, i don't know; it's for the kids' sake).
i know she's not going to change, and when i get the courage up once again to discuss this matter, i have to defintively turn around and pack my things when she says her usual "if you don't like it, there's the door" line. that has been said for years, and i just get all nervous and say that's not what i want, and start apologizing for bringing the subject up, as she walks away "with my head in her hand."
MWD in her discussion on 180's had a great perspective that you might want to consider adopting. It goes something like if what you are doing is not working, try something dramatically different. Sort of like Monte Python's "...and now for something completely different."
Trying to work things out for your children is an honorable and reasonable thing to do. However, you have to have a willing partner. Getting your partner to recognize that there is a problelm and getting then to want to improve things are huge hurdles and under the control of your partner. However, giving your wife a chance is still a good thing.
Your statement about not being ready because of your children is probably how you feel and you should listen to that.
Again, you might want to read up on 180's and on setting boundaries. Take time to GAL and maybe in a way that involves you children. Summer is a great time for bicyle rids, backpacking trips, and other outdoor exercise things that you and your kids might enjoy, where you could invite your wife and/or still go if she doesn't want to.
Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
They do these things because they feel entitled. They feel entitled because they feel like you have no other options. Like your best option is to be in a relationship with 20% of your spouse.
I am really starting to believe that its going to be crucial to have options. Develop them if you don't have them.
Remember, part of the formula of the cake is using the LBS as a "chaser". So the cake is more pleasurable while you are down and dependant upon them, it makes them feel more important. As soon as you take this away, there is no more cake for them. Hell, they may even feel like a sleeze once you have attractive relationship partners of your own.
ok, this is all i pretty much do constantly!!! i forgive her, talk to her, tell her not to worry about it, it happens, and then move on, but do you think she understands what i am saying?! no, she doesn't, because giving or telling her that i forgive her only puts the ball back into her court and she says, "i win again!" so now i forgive her without saying anything about last night, or ever discussing the issue: i just let it go. is it right? no way! but my wife is a closed-minded person, never to take sex/the bedroom/romance/intimacy seriously. she thinks and says that it's just another way of getting her into bed to only have sex with her. meanwhile, i have been trying to do everything to show her that this marriage is not only about sex: being a teamplayer when it comes to the kids; conversing with her about everything in the world but sex; going shopping with her without the kids; going for walks; doing the household chores with her or even without her; doing everything and anything to uphold my responsibilities as a husband and father.
I know it seems to you like all you do is forgive her all day, but if you read what you wrote with objective eyes, I think you have to admit that it's full of anger. You're not forgiving her. That's not necessarily wrong; she hurt you. It's not like your hurt doesn't matter; you're a real person and you don't have to leap to forgive everyone who wrongs you right away. BUT you're better off if you face the fact that you likely aren't going to change the situation much until you can let go of that anger. I struggled mightily with this, and if I go back and read those threads, I can feel the anger rising again. I have never really left it completely behind, but I get better and better at soothing myself and dispelling the feeling as time goes on. This is like my 3-year-old son in the hotel pool tonight. He wanted to jump in, he knew that was what he wanted, but it was too scary and the emotion stopped him. That's OK; he wants to jump into a pool, so he'll try again and one day his desire to try it will overcome his fear. It doesn't have to happen today. Similarly, you don't have to forgive her perfectly today; if you really want to let the anger go, eventually you'll get so sick of it that you'll overcome the urge to hold onto anger. It's telling yourself that you've forgiven her and it didn't "work" that's causing you problems. You haven't really forgiven her (shutting up about it is not forgiveness!) and forgiving her so that she will repay you with respect or sex or whatever is a classic Nice Guy trait.
If it seems like we're picking on you and letting her off the hook, you're right. See, she's off the hook already because she's not here trying to fix the problem. YOU are here trying to fix the problem. YOU might be the only one in the marriage who realizes that there is a problem, or at least the only one who knows how serious the problem is. So yes, most of our suggestions are things for you to change, because as unfair as it is, it falls to the partner who perceives the problem to begin the process of fixing the problem, and you can only change your way of doing things, not hers.
My most urgent advice is that if you're thinking of leaving, you need to tell her so very clearly. If she still says, "If you don't like it, there's the door" then it's time to walk, at least temporarily. But that's terrifying, right? Don't talk about leaving unless you've thought it through and concluded that you honestly aren't willing to put up with your marriage the way it is anymore, because another empty threat is the last thing you need, and because you already know that it's the fear and indecisiveness when she says "there's the door" that keeps you whipped. You need the ability to take that threat and keep going, and if you look at yourself honestly and find that you don't have it, then you will need to develop it.
She thinks (rightly) that you are so desperate to be with her that you are willing to accept being disrespected and trampled on as long as you get to stay with her. Words will probably not change her belief. Actions may be required.
Traditionally, the way most people forgive a spouse is to recognize that their spouse is human and not perfect and to at the same time recognize that they are in a co-dependent relationship where they have some responsibility for the problem. They also focus on the future and not the past. They make sure that when their spouse tries to draw them into a fight, that they don't get sucked in by their partner to a negative co-dependent interaction style that the two are most comfortable with.
Then one usually tries to focus on positive aspects of life, finding things that makes one happy, and setting (and enforcing) boundaries with ones spouse so that hurtful interactions are minimized.
John Gottman's book the "seven principals..." has a large section in it on how to interact with a spouse in ways the draw the two of you together as opposed to pushing each other apart. It also has some daily rituals (the 5 or 5.5 Magic Hours each week) that can cement a relationship.
Good luck to you and your family.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
