Who I am (or more accurately, who I say I am) is not a static way of being. It may appear static since certain aspects of that conversation of who I say I am is an ongoing, repeating conversation. And yes, it is "just because" though I doubt you chose your words with the intention of demonstrating this.
"Just because"
Just be...cause.
Just be the cause in your life, not in a passive way, but as an act of choice.
There are core components that I see as unchanging (or no reason to change). One of them is this: I shall maintain the sexual fidelity to my marriage. I don't have to hold this view, and judging from what I've observed, it isn't a "requirement" of marriage.
It is a requirement for me and I would be the first one to admit that beyond the marriage vows and certain legal issues, it is a self-imposed choice. My personal experience, at several points along the course of my life inform me as to how destructive the lack of fidelity is.
As for my promise around not threatenting to leave...well, that too is much more consistent with who I say I am. The willingness to just give up and walk away was a product of the dissloution of my first marriage. I loved my first wife beyond all reason and I hung in there to give her as much an opportunity to find her way back to me. The work I did to sort my life out made no difference to her.
She didn't find her way back.
And one way of looking at that was "all that wasted time" such that the fallout was if it wasn't working, walk away. And although I knew that to have the threat mean anything, I had to be willing to carry it out, I was also able to acknowledge that it did not help in providing a level of stability at that time.
Is there a scenario where I would walk? Yes, but there would be no threat...it would happen with no warning. But there has always been a point where I just walk away by just giving up.
And that is the other point about myself: I don't like or embrace the idea of "just giving up" even when I can say I've done everything I could consistent with my core being.
The way that has manifested itself is a sexless marriage of her choice, not mine, even if a large portion was and has been as a result of her medical conditions.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
Since my husband thinks it's "just sex" and not that important, then, theoretically, it shouldn't be important to him if I have "just sex" with someone else. The rest of our marriage is fairly tolerable, and there are a lot of reasons to stay, just this one "little" issue. I'm a good wife in all the other categories. Yet I think forsaking that one promise of fidelity would, indeed, detract from who I am (or, perhaps, thought I was), redefining it to a large degree.
A slippery slope, it seems, as solutions go.
I concur. One could easily rationalize and justify "just sex" outside a marriage with exactly the view your articulated. And not necessaily with just one person outside of the marriage, but with many. It might make a marriage even more tolerable because for the person with the commitment to a non-sexual marriage, that "problem" would be "solved." And for the person who felt sexually deprived, it would also be a way to address that deprivation.
However, it begs a question (one that I've asked myself): Why would one wish to maintain a sexless marriage (with sex and intimacy outside the marriage) when one could hae a marriage or a committed relationship that actually includes sex and intimacy?
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
I missed your earlier post which deseves a reply as does this one. And the responses are related.
First, I do accept that there are people, couples, transforming their lives and relationships through the choices they make. I do not reject that as being possible or occurring as a statement of fact/reality.
Second, the facts on the ground are really quite simple even though I've laid out a fairly detailed and intricate story: there are no conditions under which my wife would be willing to be sexually intimate with me.
I cannot paint it anymore bluntly than that.
I can make a different choice and say that it is "OK" that the marriage be sexless (and if that were the case, I would not be writing about it here. I would be telling a different story about how "successful" and "wonderful" my marriage is and has been).
Can I have a marriage that includes sex and sexual intimacy?
Yes!
It just does NOT include my current wife.
And now to your second post: I have mulled over exactly these points you raise. It's a farness issue and a sense that she bailed out of the sexual intimacy part of the marriage.
As I have stated before, she made that choice knowing and being fully informed as the other adult in this marriage of the sort of range of what I was looking for/desired.
One could say that she made this choice, fully informed, almost as a challenge to me to see what the consequences would be. As I have said, I regret that, in that moment, I did not go with my gut told me: leave now.
Clearly, the law is on my side in this case. Technically, we've met all the requirements for filing for a divorce today. And after remaining sexually faithful to the marriage vows for more than 13 years, I doubt that many would think I divorced w/o cause (though some might view this fidelity issue as being a bit extreme).
I do realize it is a choice to soldier on and to run out the clock. In the meantime, I occupy my time with walks in the woods and the continuing slow loss in weight. But that is another aspect.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
I wrote out my story as a way to see what I have been saying about my marriage for a very long time and to see if there is something I have missed along the way.
We just marked our wedding anniversary. Pretty much "celebrated" it separately (and she nearly forgot and would not have remembered if I had not let out that part of my errands the day before was a trip to the card shop) though we did have dinner together before returning home. She finished her laundry and I went for a walk.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
I feel very sad for you, and yet strangely proud. I could "wish" a hundred different ways for your story to "end", but the first would be for your wife to see how lucky she is. No one would ever blame you for walking away. I wonder if the cancer scare, for lack of a better way to put it, doesn't keep you from wanting to leave and possibly ending up alone. Just a thought on my part. But, I can absolutely admire a man who refuses to walk away just because he can. I'm sad, though, that your wife doesn't acknowledge what good man she has by simply remembering your anniversary. Honestly, you seem to have thought of every angle, and are still coming up empty handed. I don't think you've missed much along the way. If posting your story is your way of working out a decision that you can live with, then by all means, work through whatever you need to, please just take care of YOU in the meantime! A walk is a good way to get out to "breathe". No advice, just the wishes.
Hi Captain - I'm glad you updated, I've been thinking of you and checking back.
Quote:
Is there a scenario where I would walk? Yes, but there would be no threat...it would happen with no warning. But there has always been a point where I just walk away by just giving up.
And that is the other point about myself: I don't like or embrace the idea of "just giving up" even when I can say I've done everything I could consistent with my core being.
And the thing is ... if you did walk, there's no guarantee things would be better. It's interesting that as I read this, sitting at yet another airport at some godawful time of the night, having stolen a couple of days with a gorgeous man, who I may or may not be in love with (I'm not sure I know what love is anyway), but who isn't prepared to compromise his job and location for me and I'm not prepared to compromise mine for him - I've been reflecting on how if I've got the life I wanted (which on paper I do, singlish 30 something,reasonable relationship with xH and step-kids, great career, fantastic family and friends, gorgeous lover) why is it so lonely sometimes? Why do I spend so much time alone in airports on this bulletin board?
as you say ... Just be cause ... an important reminder for me.
I hope you're doing OK. Good work on the exercise and weightloss.
Kind regards, V
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Yes, there is no guarantee that things would turn out any better. My lot in life seems to be relationships with women who do not want sex. That is the evidence, at least.
The frustrating thing for me is knowing that I was plainly explicit about what I was looking for both when we met and then when she went sexless on me. So, she could never say that I did not tell her.
As to airports and this BBS, that is sometimes what it takes to have life work...not ideally, but it works.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
Yes, there is no guarantee that things would turn out any better. My lot in life seems to be relationships with women who do not want sex. That is the evidence, at least.
The frustrating thing for me is knowing that I was plainly explicit about what I was looking for both when we met and then when she went sexless on me. So, she could never say that I did not tell her.
As to airports and this BBS, that is sometimes what it takes to have life work...not ideally, but it works.
The Captain
Maybe its something about you that makes them not want the sex. I'm not blaming you one bit, but trying to figure out for the rest of us who make it into this boat.
I have ended up with women who don't want sex. They go through the motions or the do it for specific reasons or to fulfill an obligation/expectation. But they are not being honest about not wanting sex, not needing sex; and to be honest about that is 'dangerous.'
Who I am is the space and safety to be who they really are without the danger of unpleasant consequences. Society, peers, parents teach them what is dangerous about being that way. Even my wife has identified this state of being. It has nothing to do with me turning them off...it has everything to do with them being "off" and have always been "off" and they finally perceive it as "safe" to be that.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
Yet, DLS is partly right--we are all 50% responsible for how our marriages turn out--it is never one spouse who creates an entire dynamic. Even when we think/say we want a particular thing in our marriage, if we don't have the guts to stand up and demand it, then how much do we really want it? You say you explicitly told your second wife you didn't want a sexless marriage--yet, she could probably tell on some level, either at that point or after the sex ended, that you too were not "being honest" about that, since 12 years later you haven't acted on your words.
Take the example of a woman who was beaten as a child by her father, and possibly a boyfriend or two, and marries a man she thinks is completely different, letting him know that she's escaping from a life where she would be beaten. Yet, often as not, a few years down the line she's being beaten by her H. Is she entirely a victim? The beatings, certainly, are not in any way her fault, and are reprehensible. Yet, until she grows up enough to demand more for herself, to be able to walk away from a codependant dynamic, and to grow healthier herself so that she is able to attract a healthier sort of partner, she is still 50% responsible for the kinds of situations she keeps finding herself in. Without realizing it, she's recreating the sort of dynamic that feels familiar.
Perhaps there are certain women who are afraid to admit they don't desire sex. But what is it about you that attracts them ... and what has twice attracted you to them?
