tired of this

[A_goodman]

Ok so here’s my story. Apparently, it’s the same as a lot of other fellows’ stories. Which is actually a curious thing. The fact that so many of us are experiencing such strikingly similar situations is almost unbelievable. Especially when you consider how complex this can get.
Sorry. Tangent off.
I have been “lurking” here for about three weeks. I have been reading and learning and hurting for a lot of you. I guess that’s a good sign. I haven’t died on the inside yet. My present situation began at the end of spring break. We were visiting my sister’s family in TX and things were going fine until the day before we left to come home. We got into a quarrel about something I can’t even remember. Then another and on and on. The wife is fiery so it didn’t seem Earth-shattering. But she stayed mad all day. Next day nothing changed, so I asked her what’s going on between us. Her answer: I don’t know, but it’s not going away. Ok. So that was a fun drive home.
Things did not improve that week. I could tell there was something simmering. Something bad.
History time. We’ve been married for 17 years now. She is a beautiful woman. She’s funny and fun to be around. One of the smartest people I have ever known. Three years ago, she got involved in an EA through MySpace with some dick she went to high school with. Eventually I busted her lying to me about it and she came clean. I went through all the wrong things. Looked (and felt) like a real chump at the time. Eventually found Marriage Builders and went through that process. Went to EAP for myself and eventually saved my marriage (I thought). I had help. The OD (sorry have a hard time calling him a man) was not smart and not mature. He played a good game but couldn’t keep it up. Eventually he acted like himself: needy, demanding and well, stupid. The wife could not tolerate it. Also there was 600 miles separating them. Eventually she re-committed to me and our family. I was overjoyed to accept her back and forgave her unconditionally. Unfortunately, I also seemed to have forgotten much of the lessons I learned.
So for about two and a half years, things were good. She told me she loved me and was happy. I had made some small changes stick but many fell by the wayside. Yet there were no warning signs that things were awry. Actually, that’s not exactly true. There have been no indications SHE was unhappy. In the last year, I have been the one that has been dissatisfied. Last year, she set up a Facebook acct. I was pretty unhappy. Instead of immediately confronting the issue, I festered for a while. Eventually it got bad and I told her I thought it was bad. Actual words: “are you f-ing kidding me?” She didn’t learn her lesson, but I had. She accused me of being oversensitive and of rubbing her face in her infidelity. Which BTW I have NEVER done. She gave me a load of BS about not wanting her to have a life and wanting to control everything she does. Said it was just to contact old friends and keep abreast of local happenings. I didn’t remind her that it was an old “friend” that she almost blew us up over. Eventually she guilted me and said she’d take it down if it bothered me so much. Then snidely said she’d just stay home and do whatever I told her was “okay”. What could I do? Look like that which she was accusing me of? I rolled. Around the same time, she started going to after work things with her friends at work. Which eventually grew into going out at night. She has some other friends, but these new ones are all single and can and do go out very often. Usually it’s to the local country bar. My wife loves to two-step. I was invited early on and went a few times, but now I’m not welcome. We had a rare case of both kids sleeping over with friends a couple of weeks ago but I wasn’t invited out with wife and friends. I was pissed and she told me it was a ladies night. Later found out there were some dudes there. Friends and sibling of her girlfriend. (This is starting to sound REALLY bad when I put it all in print).
Back to March. Eventually, we had it out. She was upset and was done trying to ignore her feelings. She felt like she was dying to herself. That the marriage was a noose and that she would never be happy unless she got out. She felt like I would never change and that if she lost the fight in her mind that she would be stuck forever in our crappy life. Yet she was fighting that voice screaming to leave and start over because of the kids and because she felt crushing guilt about before and didn’t want to hurt me again. Said she would try counseling if I wanted it. She says there’s nobody in the wings. That was late March. Since then things have not gotten better. I, of course, pulled out all the stops. I was a first class, self-deprecating pu$$y for a while. Did the pursuit thing to no avail. Then the anger set in. after a while, she told me I was being a dick. I told her that I was pissed and found myself detaching more and more each day. Whod’a thunk I had actually stumbled across THE solution? Anyway she got me off it by asking logically if I thought that was a good thing to do in our situation. “Should you be pushing me FURTHER away right now?” It worked like a charm. My heart wasn’t in pursuit and I was afraid to man up. What’s that called around here? Limbo? Anyway, whatever it was sucked. Weeks stretched into months. She wasn’t moving on counseling. No mention of it. Sex dried up. We used to “have relations” three to five times a week. Then it was once a month. At the time it was confusing, because last time, she would seduce me regularly. I guess it makes sense now. Her lover was 600 miles away and the sex was good at home. I asked her about Counseling and she told me: “why do I have to set it up?” Fine. So I started doing research. Found a list of LMFTs here and gave it to her to pick one. That took another three weeks. Finally, I told her I’m picking one and set up the appt. That was three weeks ago. Have been to two sessions. 3rd tomorrow. In the mean time I found you guys. So counseling on top of dbing is a strange dichotomy.
The whole time she has been cold and dismissive towards me. She belittles me regularly and has abandoned whatever measures she had employed to keep her complaining in check. She is very quick to snap at anything. That is not new. She has always had a temper. But she had been doing better at staying civil. She continues to go out at will (did I mention dancing with other men) and spends an inordinate time facebooking/texting/playing scrabble with other people on the I-phone. I have mentioned that these things bother me and she told me flat-out that she doesn’t need my permission to live however she chooses. And that she is un-apologetic about it. Which I read F-you.
She has a laundry list of crap that she doesn’t like about me, which I have re-doubled my efforts to change. She is right about much of it. I have faults. They have negatively impacted my life and I want to change them. First it was to deny her any more ammunition. And now I realize it needs to be done for me to be a better person. Don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing Earth shattering on that list. I don’t use, don’t smoke, don’t drink much, not violent or emotionally abusive. I am a dedicated and involved father to my two sons. I am a Cubscout leader and coach youth sports.
My faults are procrastination, not following through on household projects, a tendency to be a packrat, an ambivelance towards moving to a nicer house (mostly because of the work involved to list ours). I am overweight and don’t regularly go to the doctor unless I’m sick. Basically I’m positive and optimistic and not really worried enough about the same things she is. Since her first list, which included the above items, I have lost 30 lbs, been for a physical (perfect health thankfully), started working the punch list on the house and have been keeping up with household chores. New things keep getting added. She says I’m smothering her. So I stopped hanging around her. Says I act like her father, so fine do what you want. Recently, it’s: “you never do anything with your friends” she’s worried that I have no life except her and the kids. I told her she wants me to sanction her behavior by doing the same thing she is doing. That was not a fun conversation. I told her I have a very rich and fulfilling life. Being there and involved for the boys takes a lot of time during the school year and I enjoy it. There’s plenty of social interaction. She says it doesn’t count because it’s not with MY friends hanging out and having a life away from family interests. I told her that if this goes south, I’ll have plenty of time to hang out with my friends and that I’M the social animal of the two of us. I won’t have any problems finding people to do stuff with. I know GAL principles say to go do this, but really in my mind, it is more important to be there for the kids. They need some consistency; I don’t want to join her in this conspicuous absence. She never comes home from work on time. Goes out for hours during the day on the weekends, and hits the club’s 2-3 times a month. The kids haven’t said anything, but they have to be aware that Mommy is not around as much. I don’t want to add to that uncertainty. Is that stupid? Furthermore, I don’t want to give her ANY ammunition for court. Doing something stupid now could jeopardize my chances of gaining custody. So I have dialed even my household drinking back to maybe a beer a week or less.
This is getting long. Basically all I have left is despair. She gives the same old platitudes about the “children will be ok. They’ll be better off with happy parents.” That is a load of crap. She USED to feel like I do; that kids don’t deserve a broken home. i.e. that absent any abuse or dangerous behaviors, kids are ALWAYS better off with BOTH parents. Now she’s a different person.
Three weeks ago, right after our first session, I found out that she had her paycheck deposited elsewhere. She runs the checkbook so I guess figured I wouldn’t know. Only she told me we were out of money due to a large number of bills all due at the same time right after payday. Well, I accepted that, but it didn’t make sense. We make a decent living and I couldn’t see how that happened. So she went out that weekend and left her purse. I looked in the register. Lo and behold, there was my check but not hers. I stayed up and confronted her. I asked if she was getting ready to strike out on her own. She said it was an oversight and that the checkbook was not up to date. That it was there but she hadn’t written it in. She said she’d balance the books and show me tomorrow. She was HIGHLY indignant that I was checking up on her. Guess where I was bright and early Monday morning? Yep. The bank statement showed her to be lying. Who knows where the money went. I haven’t busted her yet. It has been tempting, but I’m not sure how to go about it without losing it. This is nuts, but I know now I can’t trust her for a minute. So now I just spend all my time furtively commiserating with all of you and hurting deep down for my kids. If it weren’t for them I’d be long gone. I love the woman she used to be and would work to regain that life if there was any chance, but honestly the whole idea of accepting her POV and validating her feelings makes me wretch. I will change the things that will make me better and do it for ME. Right now I have a hard time dealing with her as the victim in all this. She has ripped my guts out TWICE and is dancing on them. How to keep that positive friendly demeanor while you do this. Every time I stand up for myself, which is becoming more frequent, she gets REALLY angry. She says I’m being a dick and she might be right. I hope not. I want the kids to see me take the high ground. I just don’t know how to do it.
Sorry I wrote a book. Trust me I could double it and more so.

[KarenR]

I am sorry for what you are going through, but I am glad you are giving Divorce Busting a try. It is very difficult to keep up a strong front when you are angry and hurt. Have you talked to a DB coach yet? They are excellent in helping you feel much better, more focused and have a plan of what you need to do next to get things back on track. Your coach's advice is very directive and specific. I wish you the best.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Sorry I wrote a book. Trust me I could double it and more so.

It's not the length so much (altho it is quite long), but you do need some PARAGRAPH BREAKS.

This is unreadable.

You'll get more responses that way.

Puppy

[robx]

You don't sound happy.

You don't have a life.

It's ok to have a life and a family at the same time, people with the most successful relationships usually have both, you do sound like your smothering her.

She doesn't respect you, I can read that part easily.

How do you expect her to love you, be intimate with you, be attracted to you if she doesn't respect you?

If I read this correctly, she has an actual "list" that you go through and check off the items that you've completed? Do you have a list for her, does she do the same for you? I doubt it.

Here's your TO DO LIST:

1. Get a life, a real one, where you go out with your friends at least once a week, let your wife take care of watching the kids on that one night you go out
2. You don't need to tell her where you're going, just let her know you're going out, if she asks where, tell her otherwise keep it to yourself. Put it on the calendar if you have to so that you remember and for that specific day, just pencil in "AGM OUT!"
3. No more relationship talks with your wife, I'm not a big fan of them, people who just start dating and hang out and have fun never have relationship talks, it seems to me that the only people who have "relationship talks" are the people who have crappy relationships, I could be generalizing and if so, forgive me but I think for now, no more relationship talks.
4. Get thee to a gym regularly, you said you were overweight, possibly you still are, your wife is not your source of self-esteem, YOU ARE. Get that weight off, get even more weight off, get more than just your healthy weight as a goal, get athletic, join a team sport, soccer for example, it gets you life, gets you out of the house once or twice a week and gets you out with other people, socializing, interacting, having fun and feeling better about yourself. Go to the gym every night, every other night, make it part of your new routine - you don't need your wife's permission, if she gets all "bitch-y" towards you, just tell her you're finally doing what she was always complaining that you weren't doing and to stop nagging about it, because you aren't stopping anytime soon.
5. Start tanning, once or twice a week, 10-15min. lying down in a tanning bed, there's actually good sound logic behind this: it's good for you, despite what all the naysayers may groan about, limited exposure is good, get those vitamin D levels up, change that skin color a bit, feel better about yourself (it will actually help boost your mood, trust me it will, you will feel better about yourself), you will look better and it's part of your new YOU regimen.
6. Start shopping for yourself and investing in yourself. Start with a new fresh pair of kicks (sneakers), some jeans, a few new shirts, a belt, get yourself a new haircut and a new style, look in a magazine, see something you like and something your hair can support (obviously if you don't have hair, you won't be going for the spikey look anytime soon), if you're looking long in the tooth, get some hair color, nothing over the top, less is more, gradual color and hilights vs. a crazy new color that screams MLC. Do it, it's good for you to look young, you'll feel younger, better about yourself, your self-esteem will improve, your self-confidence and self-value will follow and when you get into those skirmish's with the wife, you'll be able to stand up for yourself with new ability. People who feel good about themselves, have healthy self-esteem, confidence, know their self-worth/value tend to have spines that don't allow others to walk all over them. It's time to stop being the doormat, it doesn't work anymore and people tend to get pissed off at the nice guy for being too.... nice.
7. Change your diet, start eating clean, making it a habit. You're working on changing the outside and the inside, healthy in, healthy out, part of the whole new you thing.

Guess what, while you're getting life, looking better, feeling better, investing in yourself, getting the ol' spring back in your step, you know what's going to happen after a few weeks? Your wife is going to start wondering what you're up to, she'll even ask what all of this is all about and your answer will be "nothing, just taking care of myself now" and you know what, she won't believe a word of it and you'll continue plugging along, looking better, feeling better, acting better and her imagination will start to run wild. Let her think about what you're up for a change, you've been an open book and a boring read for so long, it's time to switch things up a bit.

As for the counselling, take a break from it.
Tell her for the time being you've decided (use those words) that you want to take a break from the marriage counselling and you'll let her know if and when you want to resume it.

These things you must do.

Not for her.

But for you.

Do them.

Don't ask questions, just think about what I've written and do them because truth be told you need to do them, you haven't done any of this forever and it's time you started. As far as being a family man, you continue being a great father, part of that is setting an example of being a really happy man with great things going on in your life, if your wife wants to be part of it, she'll be part of it, if she doesn't, her loss, not yours but you need to set an example for your kids on how to live a great and happy life, they will learn from you and if you only put forward this image of an angry, depressed, unhappy man, guess what, they'll emulate that behavior and do the same with their own lives. Don't discount the effect that your day to day living example has on their growth and development, they will grow up and do what you're doing right now so set the example of a great life and they'll do that or continue doing what you're doing and watch them live miserable lives as well.

It's your choice in the end,
choose wisely.

[robx]

more food for thought....

Glad to hear you say you agree...

NOW it is time to agree with HER....

"Yes, I now see it. It isn't going to work. I now realize that you really don't love me. I now realize that you are saying that it just isn't there for you and you just don't feel the feelings you want to feel to be in a romantic relationship. I now realize that you believe that you may have NEVER been in love with me. I don't know what took me so long to understand that. It suddenly hit me that it probably irritates you to no end just to give me a hug. I NOW get it. I agree. It is never going to work when a person feels like that. It wouldn't be fair to either one of us. I am not even sure how I feel anymore about you after all that has happened. From this point on I promise you that I am going to stop trying. I should have realized this a long time ago."



And THEN you do exactly that.


No more figuring out. No more wondering. No more analysis. Total acceptance of the reality the way she sees it.

[PMA_Baby!]

Nice job Rob!!

Nailed it.

[sandi2]

She has ripped my guts out TWICE and is dancing on them. How to keep that positive friendly demeanor while you do this. Every time I stand up for myself, which is becoming more frequent, she gets REALLY angry. She says I’m being a dick and she might be right. I hope not. I want the kids to see me take the high ground. I just don’t know how to do it.

She will continue to rip your guts out as long as you lay down and let her. You (the man) decide how she will treat you. She will push you only as far as "you" allow.

What would you tell your son if he came home from school and told you some bully was picking on him? Well....that's exactly what you have right under your roof. Show your children how a man is suppose to deal with a bossy wife!

She gets angry? She gets angry! OMG....the whiny baby men I hear on this board that is scared to death of the W's anger! What is the deal? So she gets angry, so what? Does she beat you up or something? Does she set the place on fire? Again.....YOU ARE THE MAN, start behaving like you have a pair! No wonder she is walking all over you.

She cannot be attracted to you as long as she can boss you around. You should have been told that before you were M, but I've about decided men don't get those "talks" anymore. Okay, so pretend I'm your mamma......."Stop letting her wear the pants". Sure women want to wear the pants....and we will if we have a chance, but mark it down, we won't want to have sex with the person who is put on the dress, either.

In case you haven't figured it out....you will never live up to her list, b/c she will continue to add to it. She is expecting you to be a loser so she will have her excuse to leave. I think I could tell you what would change that, but you've got to start thinking like a winner first.

[A_goodman]

Holy cow! Ok from the top.
Puppy, It did have paragraphs. Spell checked too. Only, I did it at work in word and pasted it in. I sit in a cubicle farm so had to be discrete. Unfortunately it didn't translate right. I should have read it again. Not sure how to edit it. Maybe I'll repost it.

Rob, thanks for the attention. I will read it over and over until it all sinks in. Several points I need to clarify and also some questions.

One. I did sound very bitter. I am probably no more so than many of our bretheren here. This is really the first time I have laid it out there and I guess I really vented. Typically I'm a pretty happy person. The boys have not been subjected to negativity out of me. I'm very careful to keep an even keel with them. I have been playing more games and taking them places more than usuall though.

Really, the respect thing is something I hadn't thought of. I have been a wus with the wife forever. Maybe that's why she takes my standing up as being a jerk. Oh well it is what it is.

I was always an atheletic guy. I am definately overweight, but cary it pretty well. I am DEFINATELY not stopping until I'm rock hard. I eat a ton of fiber and have for years. Adding veggies and watching myself on weekends. So that's no problem.

Tanning is out. I spend as much time outside as possible and am a redhead so all I'll get is burned and it'll be money I don't want to waste.

Hair is fine. Actuall changed do's last time to the barber. Not really suffering from age. Always thought it was in the attitude anyway. Always felt like a young guy.

There's not an actuall list. Yet. I just committed it all to memory and have been working on it. Now, tomarrow is our next session and she tells me she's been working on an actual list. As much as I trust your judgement there, I can't WAIT to see what she's going to spring. So I'm going at least once more.

About this life getting. My question is: was my original thinking about the importance of providing some consistancy for the boys misguided. I don't doubt for a minute that I'll have plenty of time to go out and that it will be alot of fun. I just don't want to reduce their sense of security any further. Would golfing count? Or does it need to be at night?

I think that's it. Please advise.

[A_goodman]

Sandi,

Thanks for the butt kicking. I needed that.

Right now, I'm in the perfect frame of mind to man up. The only thing keeping me from being long gone is the kids. I will not roll any more.

Now for the questions. One. How to do so AND be friendly and positive. I have a real desire to not be very kindly here. Two. Some of her list is presumably the neccesary 180s. How does one reconcile doing 180s and it not look like being a wus and rolling over?

[A_goodman]

Anybody have any advice on how to approach the money issue?

I thought about making my own list for tomorrow and discussing it there. It will totally enrage her, but having the mc there might keep my anger in check. I know I need to controll my emotions always in this.