help with a plan

[Four_More_Years]

It seems that the original discussion of his listening style somehow got twisted to her listening style. Or lack thereof.

That wasn't the original point. Sox jumped in with that one on her own because that is what she feels is going on in HER life, so she is projecting it onto IDU.

Well, this is the discussion as I saw it:

She said the other day that she tried talking to me about her day at work and I kept walking off and staring up into space. I know from being here what to do when she tries talking to me. <snip> She says I didn't listen at all.

Teachable moment.

you did what you would do if two men were talking. men like to multi-task, we like to be busy when we talk. you solved the problem with the kids because it was a distraction to you.

this is her perception (not saying you were wrong)

I do feel like I can never win. I always think about your phrase "cat whisperer". I like it, it makes me smile. I guess in the heat of the moment, even when I am making a conscience effort to give her my undivided attention, I slip up. I do realize that I didn't always listen the way she wanted and that it is important for her to share her day with me. <snip> I am making the effort and I do care I'm just not doing it correctly.

"Wife I was thinking about what you said and I understand why you said it. I realized that I didn't listen the way you need and that it is important for you to share your day with me."

At which point Sox joined in with what you call projection and I call perspective.

[TimeHeals]

Well, looks like I have the communication problem.

Coach can give me a teachable moment.

That's what I get for multi-tasking

[DanF]

Soxfan feels she has been doing all the work. Does dhe recognize and acknowledge all her husband has done? In my case, I didn't do enough housework, but I did all the yardwork, painted the house,replaced the roof, built a shed, cleared the lot, wired the basement and a ton of other big projects. I worked on many of these things for days and weeks at a time. I also was workin 60 hrs per week and commuting 1 hour each way so she could work close to home. I think we took each other for granted. This is not a one way street. It is easy to feel that YOU are the one doing all the work, even if it isn't true. If you aren't getting the help ypu need or your needs met, you DO HAVE TO ASK. I never refused a request. Mostly she felt like she couldn't ask. Her own issue. When I did an afternoon of housework, I asked if she would then spent an afternoon digging and pulling stumps with me. What do you suppose her answer was? That's what I thought. We are not bad men.

[TimeHeals]

This is not a one way street. It is easy to feel that YOU are the one doing all the work, even if it isn't true

You don't have to tell me. We picked out two very messy dogs that we raised together, and they created a lot more work. And I did become less disciplined, but that's only because before I was doing everything-literally, so a little resentment built up, and I started slacking.

Now I am here, same house, same dogs, minus STBXW, and place is cleaner than it ever was when she was here. My job got easier really.

I hate to say that, but it is true. Didn't stop the complaints prior to her leaving though.

[Coach]

It seemed and still seems like I can't do anything right. She has admitted all of the changes I have made, but it still doesn't matter. It is her lack of feelings for me and her belief that her feelings will never change is what is causing her to divorce me now.

Yeah, I heard that speech too. Didn't matter what I did... because she was tied up in an EA, and everything I did was part of some sinister conspiracy to make her look bad or something.

Water off a duck's back now, but at the time... well, I found this place while googling "My wife hates me".

Sure the EA/PA will effect their thinking but the feelings are what you are after. Men need to understand that anger or nagging is good from you wife. The fact that they commented on the changes (your actions) is proof it matters to your wives. They challenge you on them to see if you are strong enough to weather their emotions. It should matter to you on how you handle yourself. A woman can sense if you are doing things to fix/suck up vs doing something attractive to her because it's the right thing to do and if they are unsure they test you. I have been where you guys are.

Watch how you view things - "I can't do anything right." "everything I did was part of some sinister conspiracy to make her look bad or something." This is a pessimistic style of thinking and it lets someone else dictate how you feel about yourself. Look up Martin Seligman and Learned Optimism it's a book that can help you guys.

[LSG]

IDU,

You cannot continue to worry about how much you may have messed up or not. It is about you doing what you have to do now for you. This could help to improve the M and keep it intact.

It maybe that it is hard for you to give her your undivided attention with the type of communication that is going on. Just listen the best you are able to do. It is hard when you have so many issues in the R.

Is it to late? It is never too late.

There are ups and downs, and it will not be easy.

Do not get discouraged.

[idontunderstand]

Wow! I didn't expect to read all of this when I got to work this morning.

I appreciate reading every one's views, I really do. All are welcome. It is all confusing and different points of view help me to know I am not the only one who is having or has had a hard time with all of this.

I am finding my way. I learn something every day. I felt like I was running out of time when I first got here and I find that feeling creeping back in as I continue to miss my opportunities. I am learning, just having a little trouble putting it all into action in the heat of the moment.

Last night W asked what the L had to say. I just said that I had some questions about the process and what would happen as far as paper work, money, etc. She asked if she needed to get a L herself and I said, "Since you want a divorce, yes, you need to get your own lawyer."

She said she thought we had agreed on things. She said I could have the kids 50% of the time. I said, what about the house, CS, days that we each have them? She said neither of us has much money. No sh!t. "Well, I still don't see why you went to a D lawyer if you don't want a D." I simply said to protect myself. I did not tell her any specifics about our discussion.

So, like Coach says, she is upset with me. I guess that's good. I am leading and not worried about what she thinks. My changes are for real. In our sitch, it was never about me not helping out around the house enough, or spending enough time with the kids or anything like that. The only thing she told me was that I didn't seem happy. I was depressed and did not realize it and I'm sure that I wasn't always fun to be around. I have admitted that before. With the help of meds, counseling and this board, I have made the real effort to change for the better and am on my way.

I do want to save my M as we all do. It's easier to tell other people what they should do than do what you know you should when you are living it. Does that make sense? She still gets angry, she has started telling me where every penny is spent and how we could save money by buying some room darkening shades, turning the AC up, making the kids take shorter showers, etc. Yet she won't commit to making the M work. I'm sorry, it doesn't matter who you are and what you have learned, it is confusing.

Thank you all for the continued support. I am not disagreeing or ignoring any of it. Trying to figure it out and do what's right.

[flowmom]

IDU, your past depression as well as anxiety about your sitch is probably interfering with your being totally present, in the moment. I think that most LBS struggle with this.

I don't think that you should suck up to your wife. But when you're with her, try to be totally present...paying attention to what is going on around you, and yourself (your feelings, your body etc.).

I like so many women used to wonder where my H was...because he certainly wasn't with me. Most of the time I was interacting with a shell of a man, whether because of his depression/anger/possible A...who knows. But as a women whose primary LL is quality time...not feeling him there was very painful.

With kids and distractions, it's not always possible to totally focus on one's spouse. OTOH, my H used to be hyper-responsive to our children, and allow them to distract/interrupt him to an unreasonable degree. He could have compensated for this by making an effort to communicate with me when the kids were asleep, etc.

Don't be too hard on yourself IDU. This is not about you being a perfect DB robot. It sounds like you have a lot of great qualities...remember that and be yourself as you navigate this difficult situation.

(((hugs)))

[TimeHeals]

Watch how you view things - "I can't do anything right." "everything I did was part of some sinister conspiracy to make her look bad or something." This is a pessimistic style of thinking and it lets someone else dictate how you feel about yourself. Look up Martin Seligman and Learned Optimism it's a book that can help you guys.

Umm... that was way back then, and this is now. Back then the anger and accusations seemed strange. Now... I can honestly say I am happy, and I am just doing the things I do either because they are the right thing to do (moral decissions) or because they flat out have to be done (day-to-day stuff, thinking about that right now because I have some home maintenance projects under way).

[DanF]

I know I am guilty of thinking now that I GET IT, she should see it and try harder too.

She will not change right now. In fact, she may get really angry that you "finally" get it....but in her mind, it's too little--too late.

Your focus needs to be happy with who you become. (After improving yourself, of course.) When you like yourself and know yor are doing the best you can do, then you'll be more convident and you'll like yourself, and that raises you self-esteem. If you respect yourself, then others will also. Right now, your W doesn't respect you.

So, the first thing is to get your eyes off of her. Can you do that?

Too little too late is my impression of my W's attitude at the moment.

Problem is that I WAS happy with who I was before. I worked very hard to provide for my family and I thought I was doing the right thing. Time and energy are limited commodities and apparently I wasn't expending them in the places she wanted me to, but I really did think I was doing what I was supposed to. The she told me, "I don't care about the money.", but at that point is was too late, the damage had already been done.

I know we have to do it, but it is very hard to take the eyes off the W when we are trying so hard to save the M.

Thanks all.