help with a plan

[TimeHeals]

It seemed and still seems like I can't do anything right. She has admitted all of the changes I have made, but it still doesn't matter. It is her lack of feelings for me and her belief that her feelings will never change is what is causing her to divorce me now.

Yeah, I heard that speech too. Didn't matter what I did... because she was tied up in an EA, and everything I did was part of some sinister conspiracy to make her look bad or something.

Water off a duck's back now, but at the time... well, I found this place while googling "My wife hates me".

[Soxfan2008]

here's my 2 cents for what it is worth, coming from a wife who's husband doesn't listen worth a dang.

People have different conversation styles. I was talking on the phone yesterday with an old friend who mentioned that I had different types of pauses when I spoke, then went on the describe the ways I pause and the reasons for them (like to offer the other person an "in" to the conversation, to allow "digestion" time, to gather my thoughts, to get a handle on my emotions....etc). Bloody blew me away too!!

Very perceptive me thinks. I don't think my husband notices that- thus my perception that he isn't listening.

For example.... when I pause for an input and he says nothing- I perceive that he is staring off into space/ not listening.

Now,on your part as the listener; a pause in the conversation could be for something as simple as an "uh huh", or a "yes", or "go on".... or a nod of the head.....something that says- Yes, I am listening and you have my attention. It's not for a whole complete sentence, here let me tell you what to do type response....but more like a chance to affirm that you are listening and understanding- possibly even ask a question for clarification.

I mean simple phrases like "wow! she did that!", or "Really?", or "I wouldn't have thought of that", or "that was a good decision"....appropriately placed in the conversation SCREAM that you are listening and taking an active part in the conversation and in her.

Now, the question is..... do you recognize the subtleties in your wife's speaking style so that you can be an "active" listener as opposed to a "passive" listener?

[Soxfan2008]

I have done all that with my W, made the changes and is still doesn't matter. She just doesn't have "those feelings" for me anymore.

It does matter. It matters to you and it matters to the kids.

She was actually annoyed by the things I was doing. "Why are you asking about my day now, you never cared before, why do you care now?" My reply "After reading these books, I realize now how important that interaction is to you and I want to be there for you.

Of course she's annoyed. She saw the marriage as a whole partnership, and ended up feeling resentful that she was doing everything. Now you doing things has an agenda. Like "Why weren't you there for me before??"

Regarding house cleaning I began doing: "See, you DO know what to do, you just CHOSE not to do it before! That makes me even MORE upset. How could you let me do all the work and get so run down." My reply, "I don't know, why didn't you ask me to help you?" She says "I shouldn't have to. I told you I was overwhelmed. You should have seen it." I said "Maybe since I thought you were working part-time and I was working so many hours that you doing it was part of the nonspoken agreement. I don't know. I want to help you now. Please ASK me to do things for you." Of course, I am also doing things on my own and I now ask her what she needs help with or wants me to do. Most of the time I get the response, nothing.

My husband and I to a "T". See when it's a partnership, should someone have to be asked to take out the garbage? Unspoken agreements are bad....bad.....very bad..... it's an assumption made by 1 party in the marriage. Next time, don't ask "what can I help with" or "do you need help".... ask with specifics.... can I chop the tomatoes? May I make the salad? I'm stopping at the store after work, should I buy more milk as well as bacon? Whatever? If you wash, I'll dry.... get it?

Regarding time with the kids: "I see you are spending more time with them, but are you just doing it for me? You have to be doing it because YOU want to." My reply: "I do want to and have been now that I haven't been working as much. Why does it matter why I am doing these things? The fact is that I am doing them because I want to and it is the right thing to do."

Not bad.

It seemed and still seems like I can't do anything right. She has admitted all of the changes I have made, but it still doesn't matter. It is her lack of feelings for me and her belief that her feelings will never change is what is causing her to divorce me now.

You can do things right. The point is, it shouldn't have taken this long and things to be this bad for you to do them. That's resentment. She still resents you, even more so now since you are showing her you do know how and what to do, and that you COULD have been doing them before.

She knows her fellings CAN change for you, it took many years for her to get to this point and that's a lot of resentment. It's going to take time for her. SHe is wondering if she can trust you. If she lets her feelings change, are you going to stop doing these things??

Trust me. My husband is you. We split, we got back togetherm, and now I'm back because his changes did stick. (and now that I said I"m done, VIOLA!! The changes begin again!!) Gotta love the rollercoaster.

I have tried so hard, only to have little or no effort shown in return.

[TimeHeals]

Now, the question is..... do you recognize the subtleties in your wife's speaking style so that you can be an "active" listener as opposed to a "passive" listener?

She's having an affair. The last thing she is usually interested in is listening to anything he says unless it happens to cement her decission to end the marriage and carry on with the affair.

It just is what it is. There is no real communication. Don't fool yourself.

[TimeHeals]

Trust me. My husband is you. We split, we got back togetherm, and now I'm back because his changes did stick. (and now that I said I"m done, VIOLA!! The changes begin again!!) Gotta love the rollercoaster.

Excuse me. Were you screwing around on him?

[idontunderstand]

It won't matter what I do or say until she gives up the EA. She got caught in another lie about him Mon. She said the last time she talked to him was before school got out. I asked if she was sure. She said yes. So I got up and got her phone. I told her I had checked her phone the day after the last school board meeting, which was the day after I talked to the V.P. of the school board, because I expected her to call him. She didn't stay out drinking after the meeting and, sure enough, they talked for over an hour the next day. It was still on her phone and she said it was school board business. Whatever. I scrolled down some more and there were four other calls to or from him. She said she forgot about those, they were just about v-ball camp or some sh!t.

The L said that while she was in denial, it was no use trying to get through to her. Give her a choice; work on the M or I would be filing for full custody. I realize she makes her money by me filing and all, but it went hand in hand with a lot of things that are said right here. She sure does sound good, anyway.

I am still steeling myself for that final step.
"I won't live like this and our kids can't live like this. You give up the things that are costing us money we don't have and commit to rebuilding this M into something better than it was before or I will take the necessary steps to protect my kids and my ability to provide for them."

I know what to say. I need to keep the ball rolling. I can do it.

[Soxfan2008]

No, but according to him I am. And apparently with everyone. Co-workers, a boss, mutal friends.... So many accusations really, that sometimes I wonder why I haven't cheated.


And I'm not fooling myself. There will never be communication if both parties don't recognize they NEITHER is communicating. She tried to talk and assumed he wasn't listening. That has nothing to do with an affair. That's communication. That's him not recognizing her communication style, and her not recognizing his listening style.

That's marriage 101. And it was happening long before the affair and will continue with both of them into a next relationship unless they are lucky enough to find someone whose communication style compliments theirs.

He is here to work on his marriage. If she continues to think he doesn't listen, she is going to stop trying to have conversations. End of story.

I busted my divorce 5 years ago, I'm here again only because of a pissed off day when I threw out the D word because of H's lack of communication; his continued jealousy and control; and being tired of the accusations. And me making the same stupid mistakes I made before in my reaction. We both still love each other, we both still want it to work out. It was stupid and I'm working to "take it back".

And quite frankly, all these years later reading posts after being successful in stopping a divorce, it's very different than reading and responding while going through everything. It's a whole 'nuhter set of glasses so to speak.

[TimeHeals]

She tried to talk and assumed he wasn't listening. That has nothing to do with an affair

Maybe you should talk to a family therapist trained in infidelity before you come her pontificating.

It HAS everything to do with the affair.

Now, complaints before the affair are one thing, but afterward forget it. Might as well be trying to have a discussion with the Mad Hatter.


If one person is living in a fantasy imagining life with and missing their "soul mate", the other person might as well be Charlie Brown's teacher if that's not the subject they want to discuss: how wonderful this fantasy is.

It's sad, and until you've lived it or seen it close up, you might want to second guess yourself here.

For example, can you imagine your husband breaking down and crying, so you ask him what is wrong and pull him into your arms to console him, and then ... <sound of trains going off the rails>... he tells you the woman he has been talking to who he is literally obsessed with and he had an argument, and he's desperate to win her back?

How you going to "communicate" about that?

You're not talking to some guy (IDU) who hasn't tried to save his marriage, who hasn't read all about love languages and communication, and who hasn't been willing to go to MC if and when the affair ends.

[Four_More_Years]

It seems that the original discussion of his listening style somehow got twisted to her listening style. Or lack thereof.

So, back to that: Just because she may not want to acknowledge he's really listening (or trying) ... just because she may not be open to it ... just because she's involved elsewhere -- are you saying he shouldn't do it? And do it well and do it in a way that she wants (whether she can admit it or accept it right now or not?) Isn't that the 180? And it may work or it may not in the long run, but it sounds like you're saying 'don't even bother learning what style of communication is important to her ... you can figure that out when she comes out of the fog, and if she doesn't come out then you haven't wasted your effort.'

Now, complaints before the affair are one thing, but afterward forget it.

It sounds to me like he accepts that some of her complaints (lack of help, etc.) are legit pre-affair complaints. And I'm with Sox on the resentment and the "big whoop-de-do/thanks for nothing" feeling that comes with it when he tries to change now. Again, won't make an impression on her as long as she has her heart steeled against it -- I'm not arguing the point that the A needs to be busted if the fog is going to lift -- but does that mean they don't need to be done because they're the right thing to do? It's the continued doing of them in the face of the criticism and the harsh words and the whoop-de-doo and the passing days and weeks and months that seeps in and says, "Maybe it is legit".

And even then ... maybe not. My C asks if I'm holding my husband to an impossibly high standard because I think he has so much to make up for. And it's a valid question. How much trying will I consider "enough"? That I'm not sure of. But I know from past experience that if he does make requested changes and I don't think it's the greatest thing since Google after about three days, he gets all sulky that I don't appreciate his efforts. Really? Ten years I did (fill-in-the-blank) myself and I'm supposed to fawn all over you because you oh-so-graciously chipped in for three days? Not hardly, Bub, keep trying.

The pattern and the precedent have to start somewhere. When/if the fog lifts she'll be able to look back with some less-distorted view and see that yeah, the changes have been in play awhile. She's the one who hasn't accepted them, but they've been there.

She's NOT doing her part right now; there is no argument there. The A has to stop. That is the Y factor but in no way discounts the Y factor, which Sox was offering some perspective on and you seemingly dismissed and rather rudely, at that.

[TimeHeals]

It seems that the original discussion of his listening style somehow got twisted to her listening style. Or lack thereof.

That wasn't the original point. Sox jumped in with that one on her own because that is what she feels is going on in HER life, so she is projecting it onto IDU.

Speaking of communication problems....

It sounds to me like he accepts that some of her complaints (lack of help, etc.) are legit pre-affair complaints.

Yes, he does. I don't, however, see how that brings up the issue of communication between him and his wife who happens to be having an affair while she is married to him and living under the same roof as him.

face of the criticism and the harsh words and the whoop-de-doo and the passing days and weeks and months that seeps in and says, "Maybe it is legit".

And she still won't care so long as she is carrying on with another man. In fact, she doesn't even respect him while she is doing that, and that's HER problem. She should have had the character and decency not to have an affair while she was married, but she did not, so she is strung out on the drama and infatuation of this affair and treating her husband very badly.

She's NOT doing her part right now; there is no argument there. The A has to stop. That is the Y factor but in no way discounts the Y factor, which Sox was offering some perspective on and you seemingly dismissed and rather rudely, at that.

While she's having an affair he could turn into Einstein in Charles Atlas' body with the soul of Ghandi, and it won't matter.

His 180s are something he has to do for himself. One of the 180s is going to have to be standing up for what is right and what is good.

Is is right or good to lie and cheat?

I'm trying to imagine that in his wedding vows:

"Do you, IDU, take this woman who will lie and cheat and treat you with contempt"?