WAW Using God II

[K4D]

That makes complete sense. But what 25 was saying was that her brother and his wife never got their outside the church marriages annulled before being married in the catholic church.

I had always believed that if you married outside the church, it was not recognized, so divorces in those cases don't need annulments. But just this past week my pastor told me that is not the case, but he didn't indicate whether this is a new policy or not.

The previous marriages to my knowledge still have to be annulled in order for the new marriage to be valid.

Kevin

[MrBond]

to pigskin of course. This is his thread.

[pigskin]

to pigskin of course. This is his thread.

Nothing really new to report, Bond. I am spending the day filling out a questionnaire from my lawyer describing our financial position. I've been putting it off since I've been busy with other things, but this is the first step in getting the dissolution ball rolling.

W has been talking about meeting with a divorce resolution service rather than getting lawyers involved. I told her that I am not willing to do anything without legal representation. I feel our situation is complex enough with the three kids and our assets to warrant having everything done by a lawyer. I told her she can do whatever she wants, but I'm using a lawyer. She's not very happy about that, but she thinks I'm going to file for divorce and battle it out in court. I have no intention of doing that. I'm going for a dissolution. The discussion between us got pretty heated.

I certainly don't want to be sitting down with a mediator and pounding out a "fair" deal, when I don't know what "fair" is.

Our talk covered some R issues that mainly dealt with her behavior. She still thinks she "repented" when she got baptized. I told her she spent time at the park with the OM not even 3 hours after "repenting", and that she obviously doesn't know how that works.

On Wednesday I had to drive 7 hours to attend my uncle's funeral. I dropped the kids off with my W at a park. I watched as they walked with my W into the distance and couldn't help but think of the symbolism of my family slipping away.

My W texted me some time after the hour when I would have arrived at my destination with "Get there OK?" I just kind of sat and looked at the message, shaking my head thinking, "Why the hell would you care?" I politely replied back in the affirmative.

My W's behavior irritates me, and sometimes I feel like just telling her off. But I spend a lot of time in prayer in the mornings and evenings and ask for that bitterness and resentment to be taken away. It works. I just want to get the dirty business of divorce over with and move on to what God has in store for me next.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote]That makes complete sense. But what 25 was saying was that her brother and his wife never got their outside the church marriages annulled before being married in the catholic church.

[b]The priors M's were NOT annulled but were to non Catholics and a Muslim. But the bishop approved their Catholic marriages, in the Church, with a full mass and communion, and the whole 9 yards. When I got married to my h 29 yrs ago, he was an Orthodox (Eastern Catholic) and MY priest, rigid jerk that he could be, did NOT want the Orthodox guests to get communion b/c he thought there'd be "awkwardness"???? ALTHOUGH THEY have the same sacraments!! In hindsight I wish I'd spoken up more OR found my childhood priest but he had retired by then...sure left a bad taste and was a horrible start off in the Church for my h. But that's the reason all this is confusing.

I suggest we have real experts stop by, or at least quote them exactly. Better yet perhaps, we keep it to ourselves and each chooses. I only take part in these discussions to ask about the kids or to raise an issue when someone makes a black and white statement. Pigskin, on one hand I may MAY think you don't qualify for what I think annulments mean, but no matter. B/C I swear to you, given what you went thru and the efforts you put forth, I am soooo convinced in my heart of hearts that God wants you to be with a woman who loves you, so if you are "only divorced" just don't feel shame about it. God knows your heart. I can be Catholic and feel that in some cases when someone divorces you (and SOMETIMES I read the bishops latest comments at their conferences & wonder if they may be leaning this way too)

But say you have no choice, and YOU tried to save the M and didn't file or didn't do anything but your best, and you have witnesses,(like annulments require) then I think that's probably why some of these bishops say, "What the heck? They want to stay in our church, let them..."

Do YOU Pigskin, believe God wants you to have become the man and husband you are now, only to be alone the rest of your life? Let's say your wife becomes a satan worshipper (Just an analogy) THEN do you have to stay single? Oh, she wasn't a satan worshipper at the time of the M so let's say you don't get an annulment b/c you don't qualify, you think God wants you to stay m in your mind, while she divorces you, remarries and condemns all that you ever stood for? Really?

Guess I'm a New Testament kind of Christian. I think Jesus came in part to let us know we were off track, what with "eye for an eye" and all. And he said "love is the greatest of these" and so, must you live without love the rest of your life b/c the woman you once loved no longer exists? I am asking. For I see you sometimes like a widower....make sense? He's a loving forgiving God. I simply believe he does not want YOU to be alone. Some men and women need to learn how to be alone but you are not one of them imho.
FYI--please others, I am not interested in scriptural quotes now. This is pigskin's thread. (Kevin, canon law has only 1 "n".[/b] CanNons shoot things. Canons are rules or laws....a spelling error that always catches my eye...)

I had always believed that if you married outside the church, it was not recognized, so divorces in those cases don't need annulments.

(K-Later you say that annulments ARE needed for the prior marriages....ANYHOW....Maybe in the past they were or NOT or maybe they are not needed now. SEE ABOVE---

Augustine was big on the sacraments and their role in our well being. The theory in part, was that M was a sacrament with a mass, eucharist, etc, IN the Church. Sacraments mean the presence of God is felt/manifest. Ergo, a wedding not held in the church could not be a sacrament & had no validity and therefore either was easy to annul OR needed no annulment.

Kind of like Henry VIII before he decided to be his own Pope. Lots of nobles had "secret marriages" which were not marriages at all, or they WERE but they were ended when the real ROYAL wife came along.....SO This is the source of some confusion. The other bigger issue for me is that the Church is trying its' hardest to be more welcoming and open and forgiving without being trendy. There is some discretion or we would have no argument here. Like the legal system as Pigskin says, there are times when one can get a different result in a different place/person with the same facts. It's the "beauty/curse" of having a system run by flawed humans- but its sometimes not best conducted by a robot or computer. Sometimes a bit of judgement or discretion and prayer is exactly what's needed b/c the same surface facts may not have the same "truth" to them....anyhow, back to Pigskin's thread...
(( j )0

[pigskin]

Thanks for the comments, 25.

I honestly believe that my ordeal has made me a better person in many ways. Primarily, it has completely reawakened me in my faith, and there is no going back. For that, I am extremely grateful, as now I feel I am finally "walking the talk".

Secondly, it has made me realize how important it is to nurture a marriage relationship, to share feelings, and communicate.

I have no question that if I were to ever marry again, I would be much better "armed".

As far as the annulment goes, my pastor has confidence it would not be an issue for mine to go through. Now whether that is due to lax standards or the validity of my case, I don't know.

I have read passages in the bible and also in the catechism of the catholic church that address "abandonment" of a spouse who is adhering to the marriage covenant, and how there are allowances for remarriage in those cases.

It's common sense, as well. If you are honoring your marriage vows and your spouse walks away, it seems ridiculous to be barred from marrying someone else. I can't imagine the church would say, "tough luck pal."

[pigskin]

Journaling:

Today W pulled a stunt with the kids. Left a message on the answering machine at home saying that she wanted to start dropping the kids off with me at 3PM on Sundays instead of the usual 10AM so that I can attend mass with the kids.

I called her cell as soon as I got the message late last night. She didn't pick up so I left a message for her to call me. I told her that it wasn't acceptable to change the normal routine without agreement from both sides. I also told her that our kids (or at the very least the one who has had First Communion) are required to attend mass. She was welcome to have them attend services at her church, but they will still be attending mass with me each week regardless.

She waited until she was driving to her service this morning at 9AM to tell me that what I said did not fit in to her schedule. I told her to quit playing games, because I would play much harder than she. I demanded that she bring the kids home so that we could attend mass. She refused, then finally compromised to say I could pick the kids up at her church in time to go to the last mass at noon.

I told her how what she did is just more petty BS from her. I also reminded her that we agreed to raise the kids catholic (I would have never gotten married if she had not agreed to this). She said that "our kids are being raised to love God". I told her yes, but they are also being raised catholic.

I don't know if there are any signed documents at the diocese that state that. I wonder if it can be legally binding if so.

[knittedscarff]

You already know your wife is a liar and not Christian in her actions, so I don't know why this surprises you.

But I feel for you. I'm Catholic and my husband was non-demomination Christian, but we had an agreement that we would send our kids to Catholic school as well as participating in a lot of Jewish activities, just like I had as a kid. During the divorce negotiations, he tried to block both agreements. What my lawyer did was leverage how the kids had been raised since they were kids (Catholic) which included mass and education.

My husband is legally bound to continue the approach we had while we were married. See this for what it is, it's a power play, it has nothing to do with religion or "God's love" or whatever the h3ll your wife is calling her involvement in a church that agrees with her infidelity and sins.

They aren't Christian, but you already know that too. I'm confused why you haven't called her out on her.

Nevertheless, your lawyer can force her to not to take the kids to this new church and can force her to maintain a custody agreement that will not allow her to to cut into your time for mass. But you have to have a forceful lawyer and you have to have the conviction that what you are doing is correct.

With God, all things are possible.

Your wife doesn't know jack about God...that's why she's having an affair, putting her pictures of her baptism online, and jerking you around. Get your lawyer to stop this NOW. Today.

My ex said that having my kids going to Catholic school and participating in Jewish charity work was confusing them so he wanted both to stop. I would not stand for that, so it's just a matter of this: how much are you willing to pay for you to raise your kids catholic. I told my lawyer I would pay whatever it took to stop him. It cost an extra 5k, but it was worth it.

If your kids are going to that church and then going to your church, they will feel like they are put in an uncomfortable position and will feel like they have to choose. Going to mass with your wife and then having to go with you will feel like punishment.

Your wife's church is a fraud. If your kids were baptized catholic, you have the power in this issue.

It's just a matter if you want it bad enough or not.

Here's a link for a precedent: Relgion and divorce - read this

[pigskin]

Thanks knittedscarf. The more I thought about it, the less frustrated I became because the precedent has been set throughout our childrens' lives. No amount of denial on her part would be able to overcome the fact that our kids were baptized catholic, attend mass, and attend religious education classes (since they attend a public school).

I told the kids that they are welcome to attend mommy's church if they like, but they still have to attend our church as well every Sunday. My W seems to want to make the case that the kids prefer her church, and why wouldn't they? It's like a party; live music, sometimes dancing, and they even have a cafe with free coffee that you can bring in to the service. I told my W the kids would like Cap'n Crunch for dinner, so are you going to honor their preferences on that as well?

An interesting side note: when I showed up at my W's church to pick up the kids she had a man from the church's childrens' services (basically their babysitting/kids' education) with her because she "was uncomfortable with the way" I was talking to her on the phone. I was furious at her trying to portray me as a potential threat to her or our children's well being.

I just explained the situation to the man and made her look foolish as I got her to admit she was changing the routine without an agreement from me. Still - I was very irritated so I'm sure I didn't get the benefit of the doubt in his eyes. No matter - I told him to speak to the pastor that I have spoken with if he wants to know the whole story or get a take on my character.

Tomorrow is our youngest daughters birthday. To show that 'I' am a christian, I invited her with us to see Toy Story 3 and have the birthday dinner with us as well.

I can see the angle of saying "screw her - let her feel the reality of missing her daughter's birthday", but I can't do that. It doesn't feel right, no matter how bad she has treated me. I'm not her. Plus, my daughter deserves to have both her parents with her on her birthday.

[knittedscarff]

Thanks knittedscarf. The more I thought about it, the less frustrated I became because the precedent has been set throughout our childrens' lives. No amount of denial on her part would be able to overcome the fact that our kids were baptized catholic, attend mass, and attend religious education classes (since they attend a public school).

I told the kids that they are welcome to attend mommy's church if they like, but they still have to attend our church as well every Sunday. My W seems to want to make the case that the kids prefer her church, and why wouldn't they? It's like a party; live music, sometimes dancing, and they even have a cafe with free coffee that you can bring in to the service. I told my W the kids would like Cap'n Crunch for dinner, so are you going to honor their preferences on that as well?

An interesting side note: when I showed up at my W's church to pick up the kids she had a man from the church's childrens' services (basically their babysitting/kids' education) with her because she "was uncomfortable with the way" I was talking to her on the phone. I was furious at her trying to portray me as a potential threat to her or our children's well being.

I just explained the situation to the man and made her look foolish as I got her to admit she was changing the routine without an agreement from me. Still - I was very irritated so I'm sure I didn't get the benefit of the doubt in his eyes. No matter - I told him to speak to the pastor that I have spoken with if he wants to know the whole story or get a take on my character.

Tomorrow is our youngest daughters birthday. To show that 'I' am a christian, I invited her with us to see Toy Story 3 and have the birthday dinner with us as well.

I can see the angle of saying "screw her - let her feel the reality of missing her daughter's birthday", but I can't do that. It doesn't feel right, no matter how bad she has treated me. I'm not her. Plus, my daughter deserves to have both her parents with her on her birthday.

pigskin, for reasons I don't understand, you are consistently ignoring the problems you say are causing trouble and redirecting your energy to something that has nothing to do with you or your wife's dissolution of your marriage. I don't know why you are doing this, but I hope you get the help you need.

First, why are you even playing the game "which church do my kids prefer"? It says that your kids are 10, 9, and 6, so that means they haven't been confirmed, right? But they've been baptized catholic, right? So stop letting them go to this fake church with its fake beliefs and its stupid rituals that have nothing to do with God, his religion, or anything that you say you stand for.

Stop it now.

When you got your kids baptized, you agreed to raise them as catholics. This is a binding promise to God about the souls of your children until they are old enough t make their own decisions in faith. You agreed to be their spiritual guide. Now you are putting it on THEM to make the decisions to go to your church or mommy's fake church and you think they will have the tools to decide which faith they prefer?

Give me a frigging break. You want them to be catholic, tell them they are going to catholic church and ONLY the catholic church. That is what you agreed to in their baptism.

If they are meant to be part of mommy's fake church, they can make that decision when they are 15 (or however old the kids are these days) when they have their confirmation. Or is mommy's fake church (and her recent faith) not true enough to last til they make their own choices.

It's not a choice. Either you want your kids to be catholic or you don't. Like I said, you can have your lawyer legally make this happen. But it is up to you and if you can follow your own convictions (which looks like you might need some prayers from the people on this board to realize how you are putting your kids in danger).

Two, why are engage in playing the "I'm a good Christian" game with your wife? It doesn't make you a good Christian if you invite her over the kid's bday. Why wouldn't you? She's got you thinking that there's some magical scorecard that you can tick off as "good Christian" and "bad Christian" and now you get to tick off the "birthday" box?

Stop that thinking. You are inviting her because she's the mother of your kids. If you were Christian - like you say you are - you wouldn't have to point it out...it'd be a given. Know that quote in Corinthians about love not being like a noisy gong? Love is patient, love is kind. Well, stop tooting your own damn horn.

That's what fake Christians, like your wife, do. They have to have a big showcase. You have to show your kids that you walk the walk in your faith. So take them to church and ignore getting into p!ssing matches. But first, get on the phone with your lawyer and stop your kids from going to a church that is not catholic.

That's the only thing that matters, if you believe like you say you believe. Good luck and vaya con dios. You need it.

[MrBond]

knittedscarf,

Geez you really have an issue with Christians. Playing devil's advocate, the W's pastor has done more than the majority of Catholic priests in general. I'm Catholic BTW.

This isn't an issue with the church. It's pigskin's W. Period.

It just seemed like you're the one who needs to change the focus back to the marriage itself. I just haven't heard anyone so P.O.'d about a church before. I can tell you've got some major bitterness left over from your own sitch.

IMO pigskin is more interested in dealing with his W right now.