WAW Using God II

[25yearsmlc]

Interesting. I am not sure of this b/c I took some Canon law classes at the Catholic Law school I attended and some of these things seem more rigid than are practiced.

My brother & his wife are both in their 2nd marriages and each has 3 kids from those prior M's, neither got annulments of their first M's. But they had a full mass at their Catholic wedding. I wonder now about their first m's, guessing neither took place in a Catholic church...Of course you could marry outside the Church, which I assume you're not okay with?

But on another note, why do you think the marriage was never valid? ( Just curious and hey, if it's an off limits topic, that's cool)
(( j ))

[Deep]

I was considering this issue a LOT too at certain points in time.

From what I understand, there are limited reasons why a M can be annulled, and one that is often used is linked in some way to "with full consent and knowledge" of both spouses. So I'd guess if it can be accepted that that was an absence of total consent and/or knowledge of circumstances, the M can be deemed annulled.

My pastor however, was rather blunt and very practical . He made it clear annulment was not a tool of convenience. And as he put it: "what are you here for? strength to forgive? spiritual help? comfort? validation that your wife was wrong? You know what the right decision is, and what is being asked of you, difficult though it may be. Be a man and take that path. If your W chooses to stray thereafter, you would have sincerely done what you could. But stop feeling sorry for yourself." Umm I felt rather hard done by at that time I must say!

Sorry to go OT ...

[pigskin]

Interesting. I am not sure of this b/c I took some Canon law classes at the Catholic Law school I attended and some of these things seem more rigid than are practiced.

My brother & his wife are both in their 2nd marriages and each has 3 kids from those prior M's, neither got annulments of their first M's. But they had a full mass at their Catholic wedding. I wonder now about their first m's, guessing neither took place in a Catholic church...Of course you could marry outside the Church, which I assume you're not okay with?

But on another note, why do you think the marriage was never valid? ( Just curious and hey, if it's an off limits topic, that's cool)
(( j ))

Your brother and his wife are in an invalid marriage currently according to what the church teaches. According to my pastor, marriages of catholics outside of the church are still recognized as marriages that need to be annulled if one wishes to be married in the catholic church to a different spouse.

To answer your question, yes, if I ever got married again it would have to be in the catholic church. I have no interest in any other arrangement.

Why do I think the marriage was invalid? Honestly, I'm not sure that I do. I was damn sure of what I was doing from my standpoint. And there was no way I was ever going to walk away from my commitment. But my pastor told me the annulment process digs into signs and patterns of behavior that one or both parties may have not picked up on for whatever reason. I guess I won't know if any of that applies in my case until I get into it. The fact that my W wasn't catholic and at least recently talked about how she never felt marriage is forever may play into it somewhat.

[pigskin]

My pastor however, was rather blunt and very practical . He made it clear annulment was not a tool of convenience. And as he put it: "what are you here for? strength to forgive? spiritual help? comfort? validation that your wife was wrong? You know what the right decision is, and what is being asked of you, difficult though it may be. Be a man and take that path. If your W chooses to stray thereafter, you would have sincerely done what you could. But stop feeling sorry for yourself." Umm I felt rather hard done by at that time I must say!

Sorry to go OT ...

Tough words from a priest, but too many of them are afraid to say what needs to be said. I'm glad there are still some out there who can tell it like it is.

I truly believe I've done all the Lord has asked of me. My W refuses to return, so I have but one option, and that is to move on.

I have no regrets now, and shall have none in the future with regard to how I handled this situation.

[25yearsmlc]

no offense but I think you're way off on my brother's marriage being invalid in the eyes of the church and it's ironic as hell coming from someone who wants an annulment after DBing to save the marriage. Deep is correct, for a marriage never to have been valid in the eyes of the Church, one or more of very FEW elements must be missing. FWIW most Catholic parishes are looking for ways to keep people in the church feeling welcome rather than ways to exclude from our faith. In the US our numbers are in decline and although I don't like being 'trendy" with faith, I find the idea that a WAS can end a LBS person's chance for love forever, in "the eyes of a loving God" pretty darn untenable.

In my brother's case (which had a bishop's approval, btw), I suspect that the prior m's were not considered sacramental or valid, (sil was m to a Muslim but my brother was m to a Baptist) and that part-i.e, the sacramental dimensions being essential, is something I do recall from my Canon law class.


Certainly if his prior m was valid, seems yours would be too. And your recall of comments or her new ones are not going to suffice IF the old rules apply. As I recall my friend's annulment required ME to vouch for the fact that her husband changed his mind about kids, or never wanted kids but pretended to at the time of the M which is fraud...I and 2 other "witnesses" had to attest to some sort of fraud. That was 26 years ago though. I think insanity, drunkeness and basically inability to comprehend your vows for the sacrament were factors. I cannot recall ANY others, I mean, lacking the ability (for a variety of reasons like the aforementiond) to grasp the vows and mean them, or material fraud are the only reasons I recall existing. It's been awhile. But I know there was a short little list back then. Maybe it's different now. (And legal annulments grounds are quite different, although they also mean that the marriage was never valid, in the eyes of man's law).

Best of luck in your inward search. Oh, and you may want to check out another opinion b/c clearly there is some variability, regardless of whether there should be, there is.
J-

[pigskin]

I'm just going off of what I was told by my pastor, 25. He's had 27 years of experience working with the annulment board, and told me just last week that even "outside the church" marriages must be annulled. Now perhaps that is a recent ruling that wasn't in effect at the time your brother married in the church.

It's a subjective process totally dependent on how certain events or patterns in the relationship are viewed. So I could easily see the same case presented to different boards and getting different verdicts, much like in the regular legal system.

[K4D]

I had to chime in on this one as it is near and dear to me.

I don't remember exactly the circumstances of 25's relatives prior marriages. But what I do know from much research on my own is that if the church declares a marriage annuled/invalid, even if they are wrong, the church basically eats that one before God, not the 2 people getting married. If the marriages were annuled from the past, and a full mass was done on the new marriage with the blessing and sacraments, and there was no fraud involved, the marriage is then now valid and for life. So if everything was done right this time, her brother's marriage is now set for life and there is no way for him to get out of this one now. And hopefully, he nor his wife never will want to. I hope it is a great marriage til the end for them.

I have done quite a bit of research on cannon law this past year so while I am no expert at all, I have learned enough to know that.

Kevin

[pigskin]

I had to chime in on this one as it is near and dear to me.

I don't remember exactly the circumstances of 25's relatives prior marriages. But what I do know from much research on my own is that if the church declares a marriage annuled/invalid, even if they are wrong, the church basically eats that one before God, not the 2 people getting married. If the marriages were annuled from the past, and a full mass was done on the new marriage with the blessing and sacraments, and there was no fraud involved, the marriage is then now valid and for life. So if everything was done right this time, her brother's marriage is now set for life and there is no way for him to get out of this one now. And hopefully, he nor his wife never will want to. I hope it is a great marriage til the end for them.

I have done quite a bit of research on cannon law this past year so while I am no expert at all, I have learned enough to know that.

Kevin

That makes complete sense. But what 25 was saying was that her brother and his wife never got their outside the church marriages annulled before being married in the catholic church.

I had always believed that if you married outside the church, it was not recognized, so divorces in those cases don't need annulments. But just this past week my pastor told me that is not the case, but he didn't indicate whether this is a new policy or not.

[MrBond]

So what's the latest?

[K4D]

So what's the latest?

Mr. Bond,

To whom are you speaking?

Kevin