i know i sound like a defeatist, but i really don't know why i'm even discussing these issues anymore. i really think it's the fact that i cannot win in this situation, and that i can't say that i have lost. something always brings me back to "want" her. there's something about her that makes me desire her, and i know i'm wrong for fighting this losing battle.
Your post gives some of us optimism who haven't been at this for so long. Mine is about 2 years of craziness. I'm going to read your post again to motivate myself to be on that track. Plus it sounds like the plan you executed put you in a much better life position even if the wife decided to leave you.
1. You sound like you've made up your mind to leave. Have you told her? You might be surprised what happens if you do, but either way, you won't have to deal with it by yourself. Even if you want to wait a couple of years for the kids' sake, if you've made the decision now, I'd tell her that. If you haven't decided, I'd tell her I was thinking about it and why.
2. You remind me of something I used to write about here a lot. I would try to discuss my sexual starvation with my wife (she and I are both school teachers) but it never worked. It didn't work because she would immediately start crying . . . and I would always, without fail, forget all about everything I was trying to get across to her and instead focus on stopping her tears. I would drop the subject of sex, comfort her, reassure her that I would never leave and I loved her no matter what. I thought I was being such a loving, caring, compassionate, supportive guy, but I was giving her the opposite of what she needed. I was giving her an easy way out of facing what she was doing to our marriage. Which, when you think about it, was what *I* was doing to our marriage. I don't know for certain from your writing that you've had that experience or something close to it, but it sounded familiar. If you do what I did--allow your wife to derail your attempts to discuss your sex life by crying or by asking to be left alone--you may be amazed how much you can change things simply by making it clear that you won't allow that anymore. Just push on. Either ignore the tears and the pleas or tell her firmly but nicely, "I'm not trying to make you cry, but I have to talk to you about this." Then go on. If you really think she honestly can't handle it, tell her you'll talk to her about it later at a specific time so she can be ready. Then do it. Don't accept tears, don't accept pleas to be left alone, and don't accept angry outbursts. Just keep going until you've said what needs to be said. If nothing else, even if she never admits it to you, she'd be crazy not to respect you for doing this. But if you get a real conversation started, who knows where it might lead?
3. What are you doing to get a life? When you leave, for instance, what are you going to do? Are you doing that now? If not, why not?
4. I know someone said he envied you the public touching your wife does, but I know exactly what you mean and it really is horrible. It feels like she's mocking you, like she's so cynical that she's faking physical affection in front of the rest of the world while she rejects you in private. My wife and I were always very affectionate in public and with family and friends, and as the sex-starved marriage got worse and worse, I hated it more and more. She would stand with her hand around my waist and it would be all I could think about, because it had literally been months since she had touched me that intimately in private. It made no sense. I thought she was teasing me, touching me and kissing me when I couldn't "do anything about it," then rejecting me with a laugh or a vicious taunt like "do you HAVE to do that? Can't you EVER stop?" in private moments. I hated it and I hated her. One day at her parents' house, one of her family friends jokingly asked why we didn't already have a dozen children, the way we always had to be touching each other, ha ha ha? It was all I could do to smile and be quiet, because I wanted to say, "Because she won't let me touch her for real and hasn't for a year. Because what you're seeing right now is bullshit she uses to make it look like she's in love with me, but I know better. Because when we get home and no one is watching, if I try to kiss her a little longer or touch her a little more sexually, she'll push me away and call me a pervert."
Just typing it is bringing back that sick-to-my-stomach feeling I carried around with me at all times back then.
"School teachers . . . sheesh." don't know what you mean by that remark.
that's exactly what happened in the past--not so much crying, but more anger from her whenever i discuss the ssm resulting in "if you don't like it, there's the door!" bringing me to a halt and reversing my emotions to doing everything to diffuse the situation by agreeing with her that there is nothing wrong, and that it's my fault for thinking and feeling this way--just so she can stop being angry at me. then things would settle down and the subject was dropped until the angst built and then i unleashed it only to get the same attitude, giving her the same response.
the display of public affection is like a slap in the face knowing that it's all a facade.
Why do you think she shows you the door? Do you think she does it because she genuinely doesn't care whether you leave, or because she's convinced that you won't and she knows that ends the conversation? What would happen if you said something like "I don't know how serious you are about that, but I'm serious. Either we fix this marriage or I leave. I've been thinking for some time now about leaving when the youngest gets to high school, but if there's no hope, I might do it sooner."
The problem if she's just trying to bluff you and cut off the conversation is that it has worked in the past and she will expect it to work. And she'll expect you to *say* that it won't work this time, but the first time (or three!) you do this, she may not be able to believe you'll follow through. It will be your words against your actions until you show her different actions for awhile.
.... What would happen if you said something like "I don't know how serious you are about that, but I'm serious. Either we fix this marriage or I leave. I've been thinking for some time now about leaving when the youngest gets to high school, but if there's no hope, I might do it sooner."
+1 Some really great advice! A couple of comments.
First, one of the messages I always tried to convey was that "I have made a promise to myself that I will be healthy and happy by xdatex and that if I can't get the love and touching I need from you, I will end this marriage, but I would rather stay married to you, which is why I want to let you know about my needs (or why we need to go to a sex therapist, or whatever)."
Second, in the John Gottman workshop my wife and I learned about an interesting mental reaction to stress he called "flooding." What happens (sometimes) is that when a person becomes so scared that their adreniline really dumps into their system, they literally cannot hear/comprehend rational discussion. One of the things that the Gottmans urge couples to do is develop a signal to each other when they are "flooding with emotion" so that they can take a break in their discussion and come back when their emotions are under control.
The recommendation to "push ahead" with a discussion with a crying & distraught partner is OK, if the crying person is using that as a ploy. If they are truly emotionally overloaded, they probably will not be able to comprehend a word you are saying. I don't know how you can tell the difference, but repetition may help as well as picking you times carefully and saying that we can carry on this discussion later when you aren't as upset, might help you get your message across.
Finally, one very important concept not well discussed is setting boundaries in a relationship. That is establishing expectations and limits and then living with them. I know that may times while I was changing my life, my wife would test my boundaries. When I was dieting, she would want to go out to a restaurant, and if I only ate half the meal and asked for a box for the rest, she would ask the waiter to bring two deserts menus. When I was exercising regularly, she would try to schedule something that would conflict, so I couldn't exercise. When I told her that I needed to have sex x times a week, be touched by her and feel loved by a certain date or I would divorce her, she repreatedly asked me if I was serious, if sex was more important than her emotional devotion to me, or if all the years we have been together meant nothing to me. Each time I looked her in the eyes and told her that I had made a series of promises to myself and that my integrity demanded it of me to keep them. Glovers NM Mr NG book is really an important concept in being true to yourself and becoming a fully integrated man. I recommend reading it several times.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
that's the problem: really saying what i really mean. everytime i heard her say, "there's the door," i immediately stopped the argument, and quickly dropped it blaming myself for starting the fight. instead, i should've said, "no prob," and walked out calling her bluff. i can't walk out knowing that i don't mean it--that's the problem. i feel like if i'm going to walk out, then that's it, i'm dont--just like kicking a bad habit.
do you know how many times i have created that scenario in my head about sitting her down and telling her that if things don't get fixed that i'm leaving? i go over it time and time again, and it comes down to the lack of courage and the fear of hurting the kids even though i know logically that walking out and waking her up is the right thing to do.
being a teacher and being home all summer, one would think that since there's no stress and being less tired, she would be more sexual, but that has never been the case which says a great deal. it's the same schedule, same routine all year round.
what exactly constitutes a ssm again? how is it clearly defined?
sex once a month? no sexual urges from spouse at all? never being able to discuss sex in a serious or joking tone? having one's spouse feel that sex, in general, is dirty? always having a spouse push you away whenever you want to make-out?
spouse always worried about the kids being around preventing anykind of sexual arousal? having a spouse be completely closed-minded about the topic of sex?
never having your spouse initiate sex, or act romantically towards you, or always feel that sex is a big chore?
