Absolutely, do not go to his house to visit the kids. I know you want to see them as much as possible, but by going there, you are in a way sanctioning the situation. Let them come to you, or meet them at the playground or some other fun place.
If a man who was abusive during their M can poison her mind against you, then your W is truly lost to you. If she is still "in love" with you and is just very angry, then your staying away, going dark, will benefit you. Her X will show his true colors soon enough, and then she will remember how it was with you and the contrast will be obvious. She is probably remembering the better times with her X, and thinking it wasn't that bad. Just give her the space to see how wrong she is. In the meantime, practice being calm, patient, and in charge/control of yourself. And don't just give her full custody in the hope of getting her back, or because she stupidly gave her kids away in her previous R. That doesn't mean you should be as foolish as her. Get at least 50/50 custody. Fight for your kids. Your are their dad ... she left ... why should you be the one to lose them. Makes no sense to me.
What Coach says.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
so I can look them in the eye later and tell them I did EVERYTHING humanly possible to fix WAW and I's sitch.
the guys on here who say that take your approach and it doesn't work. your wife/gf wants you to stand up to her, she wants you to fight for her. playing the martyr and patiently waiting in exile isn't attractive.
as soon as you get over your addiction to the drama, knowing how she feels and trying to create love the sooner you can really do "whatever it takes."
Even a young girl sees right thru this and is turned off by pursuing.
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So I asked them if they wanted to go for a walk around the block. Sara said " I'll pass " and left the room,
You deflect it by saying she is moody. This female sees a male role model in her life coming over to see her while she is living with another man (who took your place) and you offer up "do you want to go for a walk?" looks weak, pathetic, submissive (you on his turf asking for favors)and conniving. you want to be confident, secure, cool, calm and in control. I am really trying to help you see what you look like, do you get it? What you think women want is dysfunctional.
I think you are doing the right things about your home, your job situation and staying busy. What you need work on is your interactions with your family. We know how hard it is to wrap your head around some of the concepts. I won't share things with you that are unproductive in helping your reconcile.
What exactly are the terms of your custody agreement?
Can you be considered a common law marriage?
Don't go over to where your wife and kids are staying. You meet them at your place or somewhere neutral to be picked up.
DON'T send the letter!
Will you really do whatever it takes?
Coach, I tried to send you a PM to see if there was a way to reach you by email or phone or something, I REALLY want to use your advice, but trying to communicate through the forum is tough. For some reason the PM feature is disabled on my end.Is there ANY way you can reach me privately ??
As for common law marriage? No our State doesnt not recognize it.
Custody for the summer is every other week, one with me , one with WAW. Once school starts its open visitation, AWAY from WAW as much as I want plus every other weekend.
Coach, this is the part that I cant get my head around and need MUCH deeper understanding of. How in the world can the WAW want me to stand up to her, when everytime I do she gets even more pissed ? How can she want me to fight for her when she just screamed at me the other day to MOVE ON !
I DO want to do whatever it takes, but as I wrote the other day, everything I've been doing (following DB), 180's etc has just been making things WORSE.
How exactly do I fight for her in a way she recognizes when she's SO angry, hurt, frustrated , etc and doesnt want to be anywhere near me ? Direct quote from her " Just being in the same room with you enrages me "
How in the world can the WAW want me to stand up to her, when everytime I do she gets even more pissed ?
She wants you to be able to stand up to her anger, rage, crying, fits, and emotions. She wants to be able to push and see if you are solid. She wants you to not be emotional (doesn't mean you aren't empathetic, compassionate or listening) when she is so there is balance.
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How can she want me to fight for her when she just screamed at me the other day to MOVE ON !
She doesn't understand why you would want a woman who is living with another man. She can't believe you are pursuing her. She really wants you to move on so she can respect you.
That's why she says this:
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" Just being in the same room with you enrages me "
You stand up to her by stating boundaries, protecting yourself and loving the kids. You don't put up with CB.
"I have decided I won't share you with another man. I will talk to my lawyer about how to handle the kids. I will box up the rest of your stuff and put in the garage." Then you go dark. You have fun with the kids. You GAL, you go out, you have fun. You will be watched.
If she starts to argue with you then just agree with her. "You are right, I see how you feel. It's not working for me either." That's how you stop the drama.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
If she is screaming for you to move on, then I suggest you do so, with a polite, "you got it, lady." You don't fight her with words or being in her face. She is telling you what she wants ... go do it. That is a 180. Disappear from her, not the kids. Disengage from any contact with her. There was another poster (the H of a WAW like you) on this board who had some of the same issues as you, detaching, etc. They are now talking reconciliation. She is so happy with the changes he has made. Here is his link if you're interested: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1939299&page=37
It is long, however, but you'll be able to see how, over time, he changed his thinking, and I see a really bright future for them.
One thing you should keep in mind, SOTR, if your WAW ever does come back, please make it a condition that she gets a D beforehand. Don't take her back as a married woman. It's up to you, but I would make that a condition. Of course, who knows how long this process will take, but I thought I would throw that out there. You will be able, then, to ask for her hand in marriage in the way it should be done. We women like that.
Again, what Coach says. Boundaries.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Riding the emotional rollercoaster again this weekend. Picked up a bunch more books the other day, DB to compliment DR, one about dealing with anger in relationships( trying to gain insight into her chronic anger problem), one about ILYBINILY and the 5 languages of love (Mens Edition). Also got a couple with duplicates for my daughter, one copy for each house so I can read her a bedtime story over the phone. Not sure if WAW will co-operate with that or not nor how she'll respond when asked to assist DD. Im sure it will be met with some level of annoyance or sarcasm ( oopps there I go "mind reading " again).
I've had the kids since Friday night. Weds and Thurs evenings were the WORST as far as the house being empty and Im DREADING this FALL when DD goes back to school and the every other week arrangement ends, maybe thats something that can be renegotiated with the help of DD's counselor ? WAW has them for most of the day today so I can take care of some school/employment related stuff and then I'll still have them with me every day/night till the third week of July.
Took DD ( almost 6 and DS almost 9 mos) to the lake Sat night to fish, ( another thing I NEVER did before the Bomb). Was VERY proud of DD and her excitement of being able to cast her own line, she was very happy about that accomplishment. Hope she catches something soon before she gets discouraged though.
Took DD and DS over to my Dad and Stepmom's yesterday to go swimming since its been like 90 plus for almost a week straight. DD is part fish and loves to swim, and it was the first time I got to see my DS in the water so I was trying hard to have fun and enjoy it, but kept getting bombarded with mental images of the fact that WAW is not there. Taking the kids swimming is something we ALWAYS did as a family Im also realizing everyday just how difficult it is to do stuff while taking care of a 9 mo old !
Even just writing this I can feel myself choking up, although the water works wont quite come.
WAW confides in my Stepmother and SM and I have had a previous history of a contentious relationship in the past ( LONG AGO ). But she really blew me away a few years ago when we lived in Florida. They had just come for a visit, just before DD's 1st Bday and wife wound up in the hospital less then 48 hours after they left. SM immediately turned around and flew back down to help take care of DD until W was back home.
But I have great fear that since SM divorced her H and married my Dad, and since we have a rocky history, that she would be telling WAW that the best thing for the kids is to walk instead of try. So I figured I'd better try to reach out. We talked for awhile, I made sure to start off by thanking her for what she had done several years ago ( coming back to Florida ) if I hadnt already said it. Explained my fears that she might inadverntantly(based on SM's own failed marriage with kids) be influincing WAW by being her sounding board ( NO penalties from WAW's perspective, as my Dad and SM have still treated her like everything is fine)
SM denied, said she doesnt offer advice, just listens, nothing more.
When I explained to SM that everything I had been reading was that unless there is physical abuse or drugs, seperation ALWAYS negatively effects the children, my concerns were realized when she countered that her oldest son ( one of my 3 step brothers) told her his mom and dad splitting up was the best thing that ever happened to him!
SM related that the biggest thing WAW was looking for was stability for the kids. We have been struggling for a LONG time, at least the last three years. A series of jobs for me that from outward appearances held great promise but once on the inside were not all they were billed as and didnt pay nearly enough. This meant moving three times over the last few years, still in the same town/area. But always trying to find something we could handle. When the recession/depression hit, things just got worse. My entire adult work history is in sales or construction related fields, the two worst possible fields to have experience in given the state of the economy.
This resulted in my constantly trying to stay one step ahead of the bill collectors,utilities,food,etc juggling and sometimes dropping things in the process, which eventually led to being forced to file for bankruptcy. NONE of this was anything the WAW was in the dark about ( although I will say we NEVER talked about budgeting and she had NO CLUE we were losing money every month). But to hear her say it now,it was ALL just me being irresponsible and not being a "man" and providing for her and our children.
Hurts ALOT to hear that from her, when the reality is I was doing everything I could think of, there just wasnt any work that wouldnt have been totally eaten up in childcare expenses. We had even discussed that economically it made more sense for me to stay home with the kids and collect unemployment then it did to take a minimum wage job. Now apparently she resents that whole sitch, or the OM has twisted it around in her mind.
One clue that I recalled from several weeks ago was the WAW asking me "where do you see yourself in three years ?" She had NEVER asked me that before and it happens to dovetail in exactly with when her and the OM twins turn 18. Only re enforcing my belief that there may in fact be something still there, but she wont verbalize it and is hoping like hell I can get things together and on the right track and show her stability with in that time frame. There are any number of reasons I can think of why she wouldnt want to come right out and say it.
Had a HUGE insight today and a potential big piece of the puzzle slammed into place.
The pattern of WAW's behavior for the entire relationship (nearly 14 years) and even before we got serious has always been to "run away " when things got to be more then she could handle.
In Winter '96 she "ran" to Tennesse for awhile to escape the numerous problems and issues she was dealing with related to losing her twins and the abuse from her EX.
Everytime we would have an argument she would eventually walk out of the room or want to leave the house in the middle of it, of course triggering my instinct to want to "pursue", following room to room etc, and resolve whatever the issue was and move on. I did this with the best of intentions, even though I knew on some level it bothered her or she felt "harrassed". I suppose this speaks more to my insecurities that she wouldnt come back after she cooled off.
When we first got into a REALLY bad place like now, Summer of 2007, she "ran" and had an EA most likely PA with OM that was very short lived, related to my actual or her perception of my emotional withdrawl from her.
The EXACT same dynamic just took place between March and now of this year, the only change being she "ran" to her EX. But I had in fact started to withdrawl emotionally from her, not to the level she perceived it to be, at least not from my perspective, but she obviously felt differently.
Since her Dad walked out on her and her Mom when she was just a toddler, it seems like her "defense" if she felt I was close to walking away is to act pre-emptively and do it herself, in a manner of protecting herself. Even if I NEVER had any intention of actually doing such a thing ( NEVER DID) I can see how even the emotional withdrawl could be viewed by WAW as a metaphor for my "walking away" from her or a precursor for me doing it for real. Even though I admit Im terribly confused about how she could actually think I would be the WAS, when I've stood by her for 14 years, when there were certainly instances or arguments where I could have walked if I wanted to.
This new insight also dovetails nicely with the first few years of our R, which she has admitted to "putting me through hell" as a twisted "test" in her mind to see if she could push me away or I would eventually give up and leave her.
Its like she cant be introspective enough to look back and remember an instance and say to herself ,"he could have left but didnt, so that means something "
It seems to fall into the definition of many assumptions on the WAW's part, which I know is something a spouse shouldnt ever do.
During the EA/PA in Summer '07 she NEVER really "came clean" about it, despite my having overwhelming evidence that proved it, including texts, IM's, etc. The most she would say is acknowledging it "looked really bad". The counselor we were seeing at the time certainly didnt help any by stating to me in front of the WAW that unless I had caught her physically in the act I couldnt accuse her of anything.
I did a timeline this morning, from the year we moved in together, all the way through now, jotting down brief comments about the situation at any given year and my perception of how things were for us. I have definetly identified a VERY GOOD "sweet spot" for us somewhere between '98/'99 and 2003, which is the year we moved to Florida.
And I think things REALLY started going down hill in Fall of 2006 when we moved back. At least it did for me and my own feelings of undiagnosed depression, my frustration and feelings of failing my Wife and DD.
Hmmmm, now the question is how do I somehow manage to get the WAW to see all this newfound insight and that NONE of this is permanent or MUST BE fatal to our R, when she doesnt even want to be around me, let alone discuss R stuff. No doubt this is going to be a LONG effort, probably at least a year or more. Based on someone else's post, I think it was Ken in Dallas, it took 18 mos or something for his R with his WAW to be able to be civil,friendly and possibly moving in the right direction.
So Im still looking at my original guess of this most likely being a 3 year issue at best. 18 mos to get to "friendly" and another 18 to get to "trying to reconcile". But I'll certainly be competing with the EX for her heart the whole time. Someone pointed out to me that all I really need to do besides working on myself is offer her something better then what she has with him. And thats something I KNOW I can do.
Hoping like hell that going to DD's counseling might help accelerate that timetable some thats for sure. The counseling on how we need to be better communicators to each other and better co parents for the kids cant help but have a residual effect of starting to breakdown WAW's walls, and thats at least a start.
Hmmmm gotta really analyze this "pattern of behavior " on the wifes part that I've discovered, what it means, where it comes from, how it can be addressed , etc.
Hmmmm gotta really analyze this "pattern of behavior " on the wifes my part that I've discovered, what it means, where it comes from, how it can be addressed , etc.
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I did this with the best of intentions, even though I knew on some level it bothered her or she felt "harrassed". I suppose this speaks more to my insecurities that she wouldnt come back after she cooled off.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Hmmmm gotta really analyze this "pattern of behavior " on the wifes my part that I've discovered, what it means, where it comes from, how it can be addressed , etc.
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I did this with the best of intentions, even though I knew on some level it bothered her or she felt "harrassed". I suppose this speaks more to my insecurities that she wouldnt come back after she cooled off.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
Uh yea, thanks Coach but I thought that it was pretty obvious that was something I needed to figure out about myself. How about focusing that laser sharp mind onto the rest of the post and your thoughts on what WAW was doing ?
I already got the whole "working on yourself " thing. But I want insights and wisdom on the WAW, so I can be better prepared and armed with the knoweldge and wisdom of where she's coming from and what "issue's" she is dealing with herself so I can avoid any landmines.
Gucci just posted this to OfficerInNeed it applies to you as well.
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Quote: Gucci, You and I have had this discussion before.
YEP.. We sure have..
And look where you are. Your wife is telling you she hates you and your wife says she is done and your wife is so angry at you that she is throwing and breaking things. Seems to me that what you have been doing isn't working. Not only that, the clock is ticking against you hour by hour day by day....
You are fooling yourself if you think that when you weren't having relationship talks it meant things were better. Very foolish on your part. Just because two people aren't talking about the relationship has nothing in the world to do with what is going on in the relationship. These talks have only verified how she still feels. Don't go blaming the talks as the reason things seem different to you. They certainly aren't different to her. I suppose now you will see if you can go another two months or more without a talk and then will tell yourself that things are better because you haven't brought one up. The facts are you are scared to let her go because you believe she will go. That is still someone trying to control
You wife runs and you chase, she resents you for it so she runs again and you chase. Women want a strong and confident man. It doesn't invoke confidence in a woman when she runs to another man and her ex pursues her. She now knows she can have you no matter what - resentment at your weakness. This is counter-intuitive. You catch a cat by walking away from it not chasing it. Now the cat is interested.
She doesn't want you to fix or rescue her. She wants to feel safe with you. You aren't safe, you appear weak to her. The landmines are you don't understand the dynamics of male/female attraction. She is running from you so stop chasing. She can feel that you are thinking about her. Drop the rope, detach, walk-away, GAL, become mysterious whatever you want to call it. Agree with your woman and let her go. I promise the dynamic will shift and she will become interested in you.
Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
You can put whatever timeline of years you want to predict. Hanging and waiting for them and competing with another man doesn't work. It only shows weakness, low self esteem and total lack of confidence.
There are MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of women looking for a man to love and you want to wait around for one that has been testing you from day one? How sad. The men that pass a woman's tests are the ones who are smart enough and know that a woman responds far better to a man who can say.. "ENOUGH".. "I'm done"....
And then does it..
You are only punishing yourself SOTR.. Only punishing yourself. Stop punishing yourself. It isn't good for the soul.
