YOu may watn to keep collecting INTEL for a few mroe days and hold off on the move.. your call tehre..
You can always contact OWM again and tell her that your H is having sex with her daughter and he's married... she will very likley tell you the same thing as last time...
I don't know if you can record her voice without her permission though...
You could get her to say it and they say "I am recording this conversation for legal reasons, do you mind repeating that?"
Just make sure you add an appropriate "I'm so sorry, Mom," and don't come across as gleeful for giving her the info.
You want to come across like the sanest, most concerned, most mature, most SENSIBLE guy in the world!
Puppy
Good point pup... This is all to wake his mother up, not to villify your H remember.. He's ILL... but its a dangerous ill and your MIL needs this education... you should try to get your sister involved too if you think she needs teh education
I am just wondering wht another week of INTEL would collect
I'm wondering if nothing will change, unless I move. Sure, he's blustering about me being here and how he feels trapped and can't be with her and how he may move into the rental himself to get away from me and blah blah blah, but I don't expect that script to change unless I move out.
At that point, I think a whole new set of info will come out, that I'm now thinking I'll probably want to capture.
And yes, every time I tell MIL something new, I tell her I'm still willing to work on things, but with his addictive behavior, and OW's interfering, I don't currently have a chance.
Me 32, H 34, DD 3 M 6, T 8 Bomb 03/10 OW Bomb 6/5/10 Separate & NC 6/28/10 My 2nd EA Thread
Did you see the article from Penny about the tree?
I can send that one to you if you want, show it to your MIL
Is your MIL willing to REFUSE him access to the rental if he asks her for use of it to move out?
I think he's better off living where HE is and YOU moving out... If he moves into the rental then you wont be ablet o get in there nearly as easily and he will feel like he has a safe place to hide.. if you move into the rental then he has to stay at home and live iwth his mother glaring at him in disapproval
Did you see the article from Penny about the tree?
I can send that one to you if you want, show it to your MIL
Is your MIL willing to REFUSE him access to the rental if he asks her for use of it to move out?
I think he's better off living where HE is and YOU moving out... If he moves into the rental then you wont be ablet o get in there nearly as easily and he will feel like he has a safe place to hide.. if you move into the rental then he has to stay at home and live iwth his mother glaring at him in disapproval
Please send me a link to the article, and yes, I thought the same thing about him staying at MIL's. Also, I'd rather have him see DD at MIL's house and that can't happen very easily if I and DD stay and he goes.
And she's told me the house is mine.. he can't move there unless he moves with me and DD, and that ain't happenin' right now.
Last edited by elvencat; 06/28/1005:22 PM.
Me 32, H 34, DD 3 M 6, T 8 Bomb 03/10 OW Bomb 6/5/10 Separate & NC 6/28/10 My 2nd EA Thread
Infidelity is a thoughtless, selfish, and cruel act. It is perhaps one of the most painful things we can go through as adults. And yet it is an incredible tribute to the resiliency of the human spirit that many can and do recover their marriages, going on to create a relationship that is loving, joyous, and fulfilling. So then the question is: How do we get from here to there?
The first step must be to end the affair and to guarantee that there is no future contact with the affair partner. This step cannot be overstated, overlooked, or skipped. Without ending the affair and a promise of no future contact the marriage cannot fully recover. Attempting to restore the marriage without ending the affair is like attempting to do calculus without knowing how to add and subtract; it’s not possible.
Most affairs burn out and die. An affair is not a relationship based in reality or founded on lasting characteristics such as honesty, integrity, or commitment. They are usually based on passion and fantasy and exist in deceit and secret betrayal. Sometimes the guilt gets to be too much to bear and the affair ends. Sometimes reality and the disapproval of friends, family, and colleagues intrude into the fantasy and the affair ends.
Betrayed husbands and wives can do quite a bit to hasten that process. But to do so they must be able to follow my cardinal rules concerning infidelity:
First rule of what to know when your spouse is having an affair: Your emotions and your instincts will lead you the wrong way 99.9% of the time. Don’t trust them.
Second rule of what to do when your spouse is having an affair: Ignore almost all of what they say they want from you, how they feel about what you are doing to fix the marriage and any talk about it "being over, get over it."
You cannot base decisions about what to do on either of those things. Neither is objective and both are destined to fail. Instead we put together a two pronged strategy based on intellect that simultaneously addresses problems within the marriage and suggests actions to end the affair.
Addressing Preexisting Problems in the Marriage Let’s start with addressing problems in the marriage. When a husband or wife comes to me with the information that their mate is involved with someone outside the marriage one of the things I do is to help them identify issues that might have led to their spouse’s emotional disconnect. We talk about things they may have done or are doing that are painful for their spouse. I especially dig for signs of anger, control, and disrespect since these things are so destructive in intimate relationships. They can cause one partner to put up emotional walls to protect themselves. Those walls also make it easy to create a relationship outside the marriage.
Next we talk about the things that would make the partner happy in marriage and which might have been neglected. Conversation, affection, recreational time as a couple, and sex, are among the top needs, but it could also be the financial picture or a health issue, or something else.
With that information we can put together a detailed strategy to make changes in the marriage. Now let me say loud and clear that conflicts or neglect in marriage are never an excuse for infidelity. Although there are many reasons why men and women have affairs, there are no excuses. It is an unethical way to escape problems in the marriage and to seek happiness for oneself at the expense of the spouse, the marriage, and the family. Ferreting out this information and making changes is in no way meant to cast blame on the faithful partner. It is simply a strategy to entice the straying partner to end the affair and to commit to recovering the marriage.
Most betrayed spouses do this part so well. I can’t think of any I’ve known or worked with who won’t bend over backwards to rectify their part in the deterioration of the marriage. They throw their heart and soul into making themselves and the marriage better.
Being Proactive about Ending the Affair It’s the second part of the strategy for ending affairs that I have trouble convincing people to do. And that is taking action to end the affair. That’s where the emotions and the instincts get in the way. It’s where fear intrudes, and where the desire to do anything to make the unfaithful spouse happy at all costs creates an atmosphere that is enabling. Because most understand that affairs eventually burn out, they erroneously believe that they must sit back and wait for that to happen. Not so!! They can and should take proactive steps to expose and end the affair. The sooner it ends the better it will be for the marriage.
Confronting How and when to confront a wayward spouse is a question that looms large in the minds of all betrayed partners. And then there is the whole question of how much do you disclose in your confrontation. Being somewhat confrontational by nature, and having strong beliefs about the necessity of rigorous honesty, I did a little research on what some of the big name experts have to say on the subject. Most did not have the need for honesty in the marriage at the forefront of their suggestions, and not all were advocates of saving the marriage.
Michele Weiner-Davis, author of Divorce Busting, The Divorce Remedy, and The Sex Starved Marriage, has a few things on the topic in her book The Divorce Remedy. (She also has some great comments about divorce attorneys, but that’s a topic for another day…) Davis addresses the issue within the context of internet infidelity, and there she recommends that you do these things if you suspect your mate is involved in an internet or real life affair:
She goes on to discuss reactions that you may encounter, and how to address different scenarios. Davis’ goal is to do everything possible to save the marriage and to restore love and trust. This is very much in keeping with my views on confronting and on being a strong advocate for saving marriages.
Shirley Glass in her new and very highly acclaimed book, Not Just Friends, has this to say: She starts of by stating that “confronting is not the same thing as attacking,” that confronting is a meeting for clarification and that attacking is a “hostile offensive that involves accusations, criticisms, and abuse.”
Glass’ guidelines for before you confront:
Know what you want to gain and be open with your partner about that goal. Don’t set truth traps – discover the truth directly rather than through ensnarement. She gives the example “If your child leaves a trail of cookie crumbs you shouldn’t ask, ‘Did you have a cookie today?’ Start out by saying, ‘I saw the cookie crumbs, tell me the truth about how many cookies you ate before dinner.’” Give yourself time to cool down and become calm Consider writing your thoughts first in order to gain clarity Glass’ guidelines for the confrontation:
Putting all that together, here are my thoughts on confronting. I am so strong in my beliefs regarding the need to be honest in marriage that I believe only the fear of abuse should be reason to withhold information about how you feel, what you know, or in this case what you suspect. I think that honesty is so essential to the well-being of the marriage that fears of repercussions based on honest sharing are not grounds for withholding information -- with the exception stated above regarding the fear of abuse. So having said that, this is what I recommend.
As soon as you are uncomfortable with something your mate is doing, speak up! You don’t have to accuse your partner of anything, remember, honesty is about you. Say, “I’m uncomfortable (worried, afraid….) of the time you are spending at work or with such and such a person.” Speak up every time you feel uncomfortable or that information you have doesn’t match what you’re being told. Don’t let time (and an affair) drag on while you dig for hard evidence. It’s more important to do your best to stop a suspected affair by sharing what you know than it is to be able to prove you are right. You don’t even need to call it an affair, simply state that you are uncomfortable or offended by the relationship your spouse has with the other person. There’s no need to get caught up in arguing about what it’s called, the point is to express how you feel.
If your honest sharing of how you feel goes unaddressed, continue to dig for information and to share what you find and how you feel about it. Use the information elsewhere in this newsletter to address problems in the marriage and to work on enticing your partner to end the affair and to recommit to the marriage. Expose the affair as soon as you are reasonably certain your suspicions are correct.
Exposing Affairs flourish in secrecy; if affair partners thought for a moment that their friends and family could see them or would find out, infidelity would be far less common! So one of the first things I suggest is that the faithful spouse tells. Tells who? Tells the spouse of the other party, tells their family members, tells their church leader, tells the boss if it is a workplace affair. Exposing an affair to the harsh light of day and to the scrutiny of friends and family will almost always hasten its demise. I encourage the faithful partner to contact the spouse of the lover. Not only is this a likely ally in working to end the affair, it is certain to cause repercussions for the betraying partners.
Exposing the affair creates conflict within the unfaithful relationship. The coupling that seemed to be so perfect, so wonderful, so special, suddenly takes on an air of sordidness. Dealing with the disapproval of friends and family can make the relationship seem less than the ideal fantasy it once appeared to be. Hurt feelings and arguments are likely to ensue within the affair relationship as each partner struggles with layers of conflict, guilt, embarrassment or even shame. Eventually the partners become less attractive to each other as the fantasy evaporates under the light of exposure.
In addition to telling, and perhaps more importantly, I encourage the faithful spouse to be honest with the mate about how s/he feels regarding the affair. It is essential that the straying partner hear loud and clear from their mate that the relationship they are having outside the marriage is painful in the extreme for their spouse. Honesty of this sort is difficult. I help men and women learn the skills to share their feelings honestly without being disrespectful or losing their temper in the process.
For men and women caught in the nightmare of a mate’s betrayal taking these steps to expose and to express how they feel can be, and almost always is, incredibly frightening. Husbands and wives doing all they can to persuade their erring partner to end the extra marital relationship and to commit to the marriage are terrified of doing anything that might upset the other person. It’s a natural fear, and one that must be overcome in order to do everything possible to end the affair. Remember, emotions and instincts will take you down the wrong path more often than not, when it comes to dealing with a spouse’s affair.
I tell husbands and wives to think of infidelity as an addiction, which indeed it is, and to keep that in mind when they are making choices about how to handle it. If their spouse was addicted to cocaine or heroin they would be willing to do whatever it takes to get them away from the source of the addiction and into recovery, regardless of how upset their addicted partner becomes. Ending an affair is much the same. The straying partner is addicted to the other person, and the only way to get to recovery is to end the relationship and ensure that contact never occurs in the future.
Yes, they will certainly become angry when necessary steps are taken to do just that. The waiting partner must look beyond the anger to see that it is triggered by the addiction and that the person they love and married is not able to think clearly or rationally. When the source of the addiction is removed and other steps for recovery are taken, eventually the fog will clear and the anger will dissipate over time.
Separating to Save the Marriage Dealing with the infidelity of a spouse is emotionally draining and incredibly painful. The longer the affair continues the more wearing it is on the waiting spouse. Given enough time the betrayed partner will eventually lose all respect and all feelings of love for their mate. When that happens, the likelihood of reconciliation and of restoring the marriage is virtually nil.
To avoid getting to that place I recommend that the injured partner set a time limit for executing the above suggestions. If the affair has not ended and the spouse recommitted to the marriage in that time then I strongly encourage the faithful partner to separate from the marriage. I have a several reasons for doing so.
First is to safeguard whatever energy the faithful partner has for reconciling when the affair ends, and to maintain whatever feelings of love still remain. This is accomplished when there is no contact with the unfaithful spouse and the daily pain of witnessing the affair is no longer taking place.
Second, it sends a clear message to the wayward spouse that the affair is no longer going to be tolerated. Explicit in the way the separation is implemented is the message that the spouse wants the marriage to continue but only in a way that is beneficial for both of them. Separation under these terms returns a level of empowerment to the betrayed spouse who has probably been feeling very disempowered throughout this ordeal.
When the betrayed spouse sets this boundary affair couples are often thrown together even more than they were before. Although this may seem counter productive to ending the affair, with more time together it is likely the fantasy world of the affair will collapse and that reality will begin to set in. Issues that never came up in the past suddenly intrude. Things such as finances, child care, irritating habits, and even laundry can serve to destroy the illusion of the affair.
And finally the hope is that with the changes that the faithful partner has been making, eliminating hurtful behavior and learning skills to meet the partner’s needs, when the affair ends the spouse will be willing to consider returning to the marriage.
Separation is risky, and it is not to be undertaken lightly. But there comes a time when continuing to be available within the marriage and enduring the pain of the affair is counter productive. It becomes enabling. And it can become the final death knell of the marriage when the faithful partner experiences enough pain to completely destroy any willingness to reconcile after the affair.
And the Tree article I mentioned - show this to MIL :
Holes in the Roof Penny R. Tupy June 2004
I love houses. Always have. A favorite weekend recreation is to tour the semi annual parade of homes or to check out the newest open models in the upscale developments around the area. During my thirties I was an avid member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation; my fun reading was made up of publications such as "Early American Life" and "Preservation." I've lived in an old house, built at the turn of the last century, and in an historic house of a modern sort – built in the `40's with design elements which were decades ahead of their time. For several years I had a recreational decorating and design business. I helped restore a Victorian, once facing condemnation, to near museum quality standards. I've painted concrete floors to look like marble, designed my kitchen from the walls out, and made strategic suggestions for the structural elements of our current state of remodel. I love houses. And in fact, when I travel to other parts of the country I am far more likely to photograph the residential architecture than I am to record the family on vacation. (Much to the chagrin of my children in later years..)
So, what does this have to do with marriage? Well, I live in the upper Midwest where Mother Nature mesmerizes us with thunderstorms, floods, and tornadoes this time of year. Not long ago I watched a newscast about a house that was damaged when a tree came through the roof of a house in one of our many storms. (The man sleeping just under the spot where the tree entered the house was unharmed but definitely shaken!) It got me thinking about the correlation between marriage and houses.
A marriage is much like a house. When it's new, everything is well kept. It's clean. The roof is good, the plumbing works well, the floors are level and unscathed. But inevitably, over time, things begin to break down. If one owns an older or historic home there are always things which clamor for attention – similar to a marriage that's been neglected or damaged by thoughtless choices, independent living and outright harmful actions. A marriage in trouble is much like a house needing significant repair.
It could be that the plumbing needs to updated, the wiring changed from old glass fuses to code compliant breakers, the walls may be cracked and the floors might need to be shorn up to make them level again. A marriage may have issues and conflicts surrounding in-laws, money, sex, child rearing, hobbies, or even pets. Like a house that needs significant work, those things need to be addressed in small steps, with thoughtful planning and oodles of frustrating starts and stops.
But what happens when a storm sends a tree crashing through the roof? No matter what the state of the home prior to that event, all work needs to stop and energies must be redirected toward emergency repair. The tree needs to be carefully removed, the roof repaired and any other structural damage investigated and repaired before work can resume on the pre-existing conditions.
This is exactly the same dynamic that occurs in marriage when there is infidelity. The marriage may need serious repair work in and of itself. But once an affair sends a tree crashing through the sheltering structure of the relationship all efforts directed at the underlying problems take a back seat to the emergency measures brought about by the affair itself. There's no point in attempting to fix the cracked walls and outdated electricity in the marriage when there is a tree protruding into the bedroom and the inner structure is exposed to the elements.
The affair partner must be completely and permanently removed from the relationship in the same way the tree must be removed from the roof. It's a horribly difficult and painful process. Often the affair partner has been a long time friend of one or both spouses. The loss of the friendship and the betrayal that is felt is heart wrenching, no matter what leg of the triangle one is on. But a friendship that has intruded into the intimate structure of a marriage can no longer be considered a friendship. Boundaries have been breached, and there is no way to return to a state of innocence. None of the needed repair work to the marriage can begin until this step is complete. Intermittently ending and resuming contact with an affair partner creates the same kind of damage as picking the tree up off the roof and dropping it back on again – it creates larger holes and more damage.
Once the affair partner is no longer in the picture, the hard work of repair can begin. First and foremost the gaping holes left by the affair must be mended. Depending on the length of the affair and how far into the emotional bonding of the marriage the affair partner was allowed to intrude, repair work could be replacement of the entire roof or simply a minimal patch job. The longer the affair, with the marriage being exposed to the damage of wind and rain, the more repair will be needed. The holes left by infidelity are things such as damaged trust, resentment, the inevitable withdrawal felt by the straying spouse when the affair ends, and stress on the underlying structure of the marriage.
Marriages rarely end in divorce due to the affair itself. But failure to repair the damage from the affair will almost without fail lead to complete destruction of the marriage. Marriages end because there the gaping holes remaining which continue to expose the relationship to more harm. Some couples can do the repair work themselves. These are the calmly methodical sorts who can read about the necessary measures and implement them in without becoming bogged down in the emotional tug of war recovery always entails. For most couples, as with homeowners, hiring a professional is indispensable in making sure the repairs are done well and in a timely manner.
As the holes are patched, the shingles replaced, and the structure found to be intact attention can once again be turned to the problems which existed before the tree made its untimely entrance into the lives of the homeowners. Those issues and conflicts may have become larger or more serious because of the damaged caused either directly or indirectly by the crisis of the storm – that's the nature of destructive events; they have far reaching consequences. Time, patience, persistence, and good professional help can make all the difference in repairing a storm damaged home or healing a marriage torn apart by an affair.
Moved - H was near to break down several times as I was packing. I decided to make sure he was there to see me leaving with DD. It was the best thing I could do that could hit to the heart of the matter, and it was when I left with her last August (for one night and made the mistake of believing his lies and came home) that he asked me to return.
I did, however, wait to send NC letter and separation agreement till I was out of the house.
I really hope he's doing some hard thinking, but I'm afraid he probably just ran to OW and is crying on her shoulder.
Me 32, H 34, DD 3 M 6, T 8 Bomb 03/10 OW Bomb 6/5/10 Separate & NC 6/28/10 My 2nd EA Thread
