Just something I pulled up from my personal archives that I thought might make a good thread-starter:
---------------------------- On “having a plan,” and “The Schmuck Factor”:
I think you let her know that you are here for her when she is ready to do the work necessary. She clearly isn't ready to do that right now.
It would convey weakness if you were to be supplicating towards her while she was still actively cheating on you, and disrespecting her boundaries. Letting her know that you are willing to suck it up, forgive, love unconditionally and do the hard work of reconciliation -- when she is ready -- does NOT convey weakness, it conveys character and strength.
Many, many people confuse "unconditional love" with "doormat-without-boundaries." It is entirely possible -- and NECESSARY -- to demonstrate unconditional love and forgiveness, within a framework of healthy boundaries.
Do you not love a child unconditionally, while at the same time not allowing them to use obscenity when speaking to you? Do you not love a spouse, while simultaneously not allowing them to berate you in front of another couple?
Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."
My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:
- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";
- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;
- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;
- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;
- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.
When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."
Well, since "help with a plan" is the name of my thread, this caught my eye.
When I first found this board, I was hopelessly lost. Even after getting some good advice here, I didn't understand the dynamics at play or why I should do some of the things I was told I should be doing.
My W's EA, and she still won't admit to it, and the ILYBINILWY bomb really just caught me so off guard. Yes, we were having problems but we would work them out. Why wouldn't we? We have four great kids, had been married for 11yrs, been through a lot together and still loved each other.
As we all know, the problems started long before we realized it.
Anyway, the importance of having a plan and acting on that plan is easy to underestimate. If you don't have a goal and are not actively working towards it, you will just spin your wheels and keep doing the same things that got you here in the first place.
I still have a lot to learn. I am still too scared at the possible outcome if I do xy and z. That is not the way to handle this, I know. After reading so much on here, the solutions are usually right in front of our eyes.
We are afraid of making our spouses mad and driving them further away-Schmuck.
We try to prove to them we understand our past mistakes, this is all our fault and will do anything to make it up to them-Schmuck.
I am guilty of it all.
I have been given great advice. Read about button pushing and Sandi's explanation of why WAS do what they do. I think everything goes back to how we react to them. Take away the negative reaction and we take away their reason to keep doing what they are doing.
It took me a long time to give my W the "speech". I felt better after I did and things improved somewhat. My W still refuses to leave and refuses to give 100% to restoring our M. What's left for me to do?
I know what it is I need to do. I have to stop being afraid like I was months ago.
Follow a plan. It gives you purpose and a reason to keep trying.
Don't be afraid. Fear causes you to lose focus.
Don't allow yourself to be walked on. You lose respect.
PDT, thank you for sharing that. Can't really thank you enough for your advice and your input. Ive only been part of this forum a few short weeks, you've had to have helped soo many people with your insight and personal experiences.
IDU, you also bring up some great points, It just amazes me that so many others are going thru the same exact thing I am going thru.
Just curious, what was the 'speech' to your W. I've already apologized, begged and pleaded when she hit me with the ILYBINILWY bomb, since then Ive just really tried to focus on myself and the kids. Its soo hard tho, and I try not to let my emotions get the better of me. I'd have to say Im probably still in the 'afraid' stage, but Im learning to stand my ground now. I can tell she tries to push my buttons for a reaction.
A perfect example, when discussing the purchase of a car for her (which we need if we stay together or not), she jumped on me for being to 'critical' of her, always second guessing what she was doing, one of our issues. I walked away, went outside, and thought about it, and when I did, I realized, all I was really doing was trying to help her, with good suggestions. I knew she would be out soon for a smoke, and sure enough she was, and I then told her that what she did was not fair to me at all, all I was doing was truly trying to help (and I was), and I said it calmly but firmly, and she apologized to me, I was kind of stunned, but it felt good. I guess my point is, I learned from that.
Me 44 H 39 Met in 1998 Married in 2004 D 5, twins Bomb - May 16th, 2010
"Don't let Tomorrow or Yesterday get in the way of Today"
My speech was, basically; I agree with you, this marriage is over. It can't be fixed, we both need to move on.....
She wanted to separate, to have some space. We agreed to taking turns sleeping on the couch. The next night, she said I could sleep in bed with her, she didn't mind. Then, she said,"I don't think this in house thing is going to work. On the nights that I work, I will sleep at my brother's or mom and dad's house. The other nights, you can sleep at such and such's house. What do you think?" I told her I would think about it and let her know.
The next week she was very nice, almost like things were like the old days. About a week after I told her I would think about it, I said, "W, I have thought about what you said and have decided I will not leave the kids even for a night. If you want this, then I will not try to stop you from leaving. Go to your brother's or wherever. I am not going anywhere."
Long story short, she turned quickly back into the a$$ that I had been living with. We have had, I think, two more of these discussions and each time she back down and won't leave. She rarely talks to me and when she does, it's all business.
So, I know what I need to do next. Get a L and file myself. We went to MC one time and she will not go back. I am going back to IC and it does help. I can't quite take the next step. I know NEED to because she seems content to live in limbo. I can't.
Read through my thread if you have the time and try not to repeat my many mistakes. The only thing that works is standing up for yourself. Stand up for what is right for you and your family. You can't go wrong doing that.
