but I want her to know that I accept what she is saying about my prior behavior. As someone else said previously, I have to validate her feelings and I haven't yet done that in all areas. I have apologized for much, but not for being selfish, because I really didn't think I was. I put a lot of effort into making our lives better, but it was primarily at my job and earning $ so we could have a comfortable life.
You've apologized. Done.
The rest is about action. ACT like you get what you were doing wrong before. 180. If you were a selfish jerk before...act like a compassionate human being going forward. If you were stale and boring before....start doing things that are different and exciting. Get a bucket list and start working on it!. If you were sarcastic and biting before....soften your words. See what I mean? She is watching what you DO! Even if she insists she is not watching, she is. Geeez, women notice EVERYTHING (that's why we can be so brutal with EACH OTHER! ha!).
This is GREAT advice, Greek. One of the hardest things for me to come to grips with in my sitch was the utter impotence of my WORDS. I've always good a good writer, and a persuasive speaker, but I learned to OVER-estimate the effect that I could have in that regard. When I learned of my wife's affair, and in the face of her continued deceit towards me, I still felt like "If I could ONLY say JUST THE RIGHT COMBINATION of words to her . . ." or "send her JUST the perfect song lyrics," etc. . . . she'd change her mind and come back to me.
And, as you state, similarly my OWN improvements couldn't come from any grand proclamations about how I'd improved -- I had to SHOW her.
This is the letter W wrote to me and gave me to drop the D bomb.
Dan, This is a difficult letter to write, but I have a hard time putting things/feelings into words. I do not want to play the blame game. We both know how we got to where we are and the roles we played in it. You have apologized and I know I should have been more assertive in expressing my needs. I continue to struggle with this.
If I start from the beginning, I met you at a time in my life when I was hurt over a prior relationship and had suffered the shocking loss of my Dad. I had fun with you and you filled a void I had at that time. I knew I was not crazy infatuated - "head over heels", but it didn't matter. I wanted someone to spend time with, have fun with and who liked me. I was ok with all the sex in the beginning, because, unfortunately, I equated that with self-worth.
There were concerns I had from the beginning, such as your lack of patience, you being easily irritated by little things, you being unhappy/angry when you didn't have weed. I tried to ignore them and tried to make you happy. I decided the good outweighed the bad.
When I left our first house for a few days, before we were married, it wasn't just because of you marijuana use and lack of help running a household, but also because I had serious doubts about the depth of my feelings for you. I wondered if my feelings were deep enough to sustain a relationship for a lifetime. When I saw how devastated you were, I could not take it. I never want to feel responsible for making anyone so miserable. I came back because I wanted to make you happy and thought I loved you enough to be able to work it out. You apologized, and for a little bit, helped more, etc.
Before the summer of 1995, I thought about where our relationship was headed. I felt we invested a lot of time together and had been building a life and a home together. I decided I wanted children and felt that since you loved me, I could have that life with you. I was happy to be marrying you (she proposed to me in summer '95) but still had a few doubts about the way our relationship was and hoped I could remain happy and content with my decision. I felt very secure when we were married. I felt we could be together forever. I really felt I made the right choice. I trusted you, you were a good provider, smart, fun, etc.
I don't want to belabor all of what went wrong and I know you have heard it all before. I know it makes you angry when some things are brought-up repeatedly. Again, I don't want to blame anymore. I am only trying to sort out, in my own mind, when things started to go wrong. I don't want to go on and on about our sex life and how demanding it was to me, but just tell you how it made me feel and why. I felt I wasn't worthy of your help during the day, patience, listening, talking, doing things as a family, but at night, I was always good enough to have sex with. It didn't matter if I had an infection, stomach ache, headache, whatever, it was still expected. At one point I told you the Dr. said my frequent infections could be caused by too much sex. It didn't seem to matter to you. This added to my poor self esteem issues. Obviously, I felt I didn't matter.
I first discovered the porn thing when I was pregnant. this was another blow to my self esteem, especially knowing I'm pregnant and big, and still giving it up (sex) on a regular basis, no matter how uncomfortable. Even still, you had to be doing the porn. I had a lot of anger and hurt over that. Since I addressed this with you several time, and you did not care enough to stop it, this turned to disgust and anger. It is hard to have sex with someone when you are wondering what they saw on the internet and add to that the resentment of being tired and overwhelmed by all of my responsibilities at home.
I feel blessed and so lucky that we have two healthy, wonderful children. I know you love them, also. My feelings changed for you after watching your relationship with them. When you were nice to them and acted like you cared, did things with them, etc. it made me feel closer to you and more receptive to your sexual advances. I have a lot of hurt and frustration regarding this area of our lives. I won't go into more details, but cannot begin to express my disappointment and sadness I have felt over the years regarding your lack of attachment and interest in the kids.
Now to the present day. I know you have made so many significant changes, at my request. You've helped me more, backed-off on the sex, spent more time with the kids. I appreciate that. I have forgiven you and I hope you can forgive me for things I've done and said over the years that may have hurt you.
As I've told you, I've been unhappy with the way things have been for many years. Unfortunately, that has taken a toll on my feelings for you. I've told you this, but it must be so hard for you to understand since you don't feel the same way. I care about you as a person and the father of my children. I cannot be the wife you want me to be, I do not love you like that and haven't for quite a while. It doesn't matter how that happened, it just is. If I could change it, I would. I've struggled with these feelings for a long time and it is not fair to you or me. I do not want any intimacy with you and I know that is not going to change. I'm tired of feeling this way and can't go on continuing in this marriage just to try to please you. I don't deserve this and neither do you.
I have started the paperwork for a divorce. I can't even imagine how difficult this will be, but I also can't imagine continuing to live my life this way.
I hope you will think of the kids and their well-being from this day forward. Please, their entire future depends on how we handle this. I know you are really hurting right now - so am I. Don't let our hurt be at the children's expense. We must consider the kids every step of the way and also respect each other and the years we had. Neither of us are bad people. I am begging you to keep them your focus and how we are all going to get through this. I will always be there for you, just can't be there for you in the capacity you want me to.
When we are ready, we can discuss more details as it related to the kids, living arrangements, telling the kids, sleeping arrangements, vacation, etc.
Brenda
Just broke down crying while typing the end of that letter.
Anyone care to share any thoughts about my chances considering what was said in this letter?
Thanks to all for your help and support.
Wow!! Great letter. You are very lucky to have a partner willing to explain exactly what is bothering her. Most WAS dont take the time to explain and just shut down. This is your playbook. You know what needs to be done. You know what the issues are so use this.
The process of divorce can go as fast and as slow as you both want. You obviously dont want this so dont rush and make any emotional decisions. Follow the great advice you have been getting from the veterans on this blog.
My advice: Stop your thinking??? It's not working. Accept where she's at whether you agree or not. It doesnt matter. Remember "she doesn't know what she doesn't know" which means that she doesnt know how her feelings could change if you "actually" become the person you are promising to become. Most importantly become this person for YOU and YOUR kids not her or she will see right through it.
Next follow this list that has been pass around this site over the years by the true vets.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off! 2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first. 3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only! 4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention. 5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject. 6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse. 7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence. 8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.) 9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better. 10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.) 11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.) 12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude. 13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice. 14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go. 15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative. 16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also. 17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse. 18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it. 19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that. 20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf. 21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight. 22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake. 23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel! 24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works! 25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying. 26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). 27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake. 28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only. 29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write. 30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse. 31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them. 32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared. 33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. 34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return. 35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary. 36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise. 37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
Last but not least, RELAX, BREATH, take care of yourself
Wow!! Great letter. You are very lucky to have a partner willing to explain exactly what is bothering her. Most WAS dont take the time to explain and just shut down. This is your playbook. You know what needs to be done. You know what the issues are so use this.
PMA, I respectfully disagree. If Dan's wife were uninvolved with anyone else, I'd agree with you, but a person in an active affair will almost always re-write marital history, gaslight, spin and outright LIE to try to justify their behavior, and their current, hormone-induced, mindset.
One shouldn't take the writings of an addict at face-value, and use them as a roadmap to self-improvement.
I always try to encourage betrayed spouses to take a good, hard, honest look at THEMSELVES, and also their spouse's pre-affair marital complaints, and use this time for some serious introspection about what GENUINELY needs to be improved in their relationship style, communication, habits, etc.
For the record, I do think his wife's letter contains plenty of the former AND of the latter, but I just wanted to throw that caveat out there. I've seen way too many left-behind spouses, in their beaten-down state, take everything their cheating spouses said at face value and doubt their own very core.
Oh. I missed the part about the OM. That does change things. I only read the last few pages of posts. Need to read from the beginning. Spouses involved with OPP are a different "beast" altogher. They will SAY and DO anything to JUSTIFY their BEHAVIOR.
I agree with acting civil and cutting her off when she starts justifying her actions by saying all the "bad" things you have done. A simply reply of "Ive already apologized before" will take care of that.
Greek, you asked "Have you moved out? Please say no.", but I see that you and coach were separated for 3 months. Did that give you the space and time to "find yourself"? Did the separation help you? Only 3 months. I wish it were that easy. Do I need to leave for a while to give her "space"?
Greek, you asked "Have you moved out? Please say no.", but I see that you and coach were separated for 3 months. Did that give you the space and time to "find yourself"? Did the separation help you? Only 3 months. I wish it were that easy. Do I need to leave for a while to give her "space"?
Dan,
In my experience, "I need space" almost ALWAYS means "I want space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered." Very, VERY few, rare individuals (less than 5%?) really use the time and space to remain detached from BOTH their spouse, and their OM/OW, and do honest introspection.
In my experience, "I need space" almost ALWAYS means "I want space in which to conduct my affair, unencumbered." Very, VERY few, rare individuals (less than 5%?) really use the time and space to remain detached from BOTH their spouse, and their OM/OW, and do honest introspection.
Couldn't agree more.
Me 35/XW 33 S13 & S12 M: 10/17/98 OM & S: 07/08 D final 06/09/09 12/03/09 - 06/13/10 "Piercing" 06/13/10: Engaged to Re-marry 10/17/10 06/25/10: Expecting baby #3 2/14/11
I think its that last I love you, you say, before you realize you don't.
Last Resort Technique is basically what PMA outlined so nicely above. Stop pursuing at all. Stop doing all the things listed. No gifts, no flowers, no I love yous......
Get a life means different things for different people, but it could be to do more things with your kids, join a softball team and play, go out with friends without your spouse, play golf. I'm going to a music festival that we regularly attended together with other friends. Get your own life, apart from your spouse.
Going to be very hard for me to do. I spent almost all of my time the last couple of years with my spouse because I wanted to. Apparently, she didn't and it drove her over the edge.
