need help with communication/DB strategy

[Fourleafclover]

Yes, I definitely think the miscarriage had something to do with it. Sorry to say. Sad that that happned for you this year on top of this. Regardless of his feelings about the miscarriage, sounds like he is on a flight from children. Read Flowmom's thread and think carefully about DBing a man who can't handle the responsibility of children if you think you want them soon.

Do you want to get deserted with a two-year old in a few years? sorry to sound so blunt, but there seems to be a lot of depressed, avoidant Hs in this world whose spouses are now (with children) on this board.

Wise words from rr as usual. I want to echo this: you do not want to have children with a depressed, avoidant H. Try to imagine sharing the biggest responsibility of your entire life with someone who doesn't love you and is even bitter towards you .

Flowmom and rr22--you are right, I do need to think well about this. But I love him and I still hope that if he gets out of this depression we could work together for a better marriage. (Ha, does this sound trite? I bet! But I feel this way right now).

I think I will not focus on the child thing right now (although my biological clock is ticking) and will go with the flow. See what happens by next year. Well, the go with the flow is easier said than done.... I am taking lessons from you, flowmom, on how to detach

[Fourleafclover]

I, too, suspect there is an OW. There is plenty of opportunity for your H to meet someone, you went through an emotional trauma, he is speaking the script of wandering spouses, and he doesn't want you to see his apartment. RED FLAG!

^^^^YES

ASSUME there is an OW, as I am (I have no info). And understand how that may be affecting his communication and thought processes because a WAH in an A can be hurtful in ways that are totally uncharacteristic of him.

Newmama and flowmom--I know the red flags are there and I am keeping my eyes open. There are lots of things that might pull H towards another woman, especially that our relationship has been the first one for both of us. So there might be the curiosity to see what is out there.

On the other hand, H is not the easiest person to be with (a delicate constitution and now his depression), so I am not sure how many women in their right mind would put up with that. But I should not talk myself out of that possibility. he makes lots of money, he is very smart and can definitely attract a woman.

I am also wondering about my own ability to come to terms with the possibility of OW. I wonder if the my explanations above have more to do with my fear of actually finding out that there is OW...Ugh!

[Fourleafclover]

I also wanted to thank once again all the folks who have taken the time to post on my thread! People are incredibly kind and helpful on this site! And your comments help me so much to make sense of what's going on!

[Fourleafclover]

Hello, fellow db-ers,
I haven't posted for a few days as I had been doing a lot of soul searching. The results sound like this:
--I know that whatever happens, I want to be able to feel fine about how I handled things
--I have tried to see things from my H's perspective--it makes me cry to realize what pain he must be going through
--if I have hurt him involuntarily, I don't want to hurt him anymore; he seems to really need to get me out of his mental space and focus on himself, so I am thinking about formulating a kind of letter of release. This doesn't mean that I agree with the divorce, I just want to give him the space he seems to want so badly (it will probably not be enough for him, but then I just cannot sign the divorce papers)

This brings me to the question. We are preparing to meet on "neutral ground" (as he calls it) on Friday. He wants to meet at the airport. Yikes, what a depressing meeting this will be. There is a small practical side to meeting at the airport--he will bring some of my stuff in a carry-on. He wants to get rid of my things (he insists on shipping them), but I want to be able to pick up and pack my own things (which he seems to want to prevent). If he ships my things to me, I will most likely end up paying customs fees (as the Canadian border folks charge even for used items...)

So, do I shoot myself in the foot by offering to go the following week and just pack up all my things, ship things that can be declared zero value and put the rest in suitcases? The thought that he would dump my things in boxes like dirt pains me. I would like to preserve some kind of dignity and it might register with him that I am letting him go. But I don't want to do something that would precipitate a divorce. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Piano]

FLC, sorry I wasn't around to post to you. I just had my baby. Please let me know how this meeting went? I presume this was Friday just passed?

[rr22]

You have a right to pack your own things.

His pain and desires are not more important than yours.

He needs to accept that it will not all be on his terms for his convenience. You matter and can be as considerate as possible.

He should be too. You can't make him be. But you don't have to agree to your stuff being dumped.

Let him leave the apt. that day if he can't handle it.

[Fourleafclover]

Hi everyone,

I have been silent for a whole month. I just tried to pull myself together. It seems that whenever I think that I am learning to breathe again, something bad happens again.

I met H on "neutral ground" at the end of May (at an airport--how delightful!). He is in MLC and he even acknowledges it (probably IC told him so). The first thing he told me was that "all his life he did what other wanted him to do or what others thought would be good for him. Now it's time to do what he wants." I suggested that such a thought hints at an identity crisis. His response: "if you mean some kind of MLC, yest, I think that's the case." Of course he doesn't see his flight from our marriage as part of it.

He said he feels nothing for me (he remarked on my good looks but was very reluctant to touch me in any way. A goodbye hug was the kind you'd give to a person with some contagious desease that you want to touch only minimally). He wants to find his happiness with other women (plural), but he says "he also has a moral code and he cannot cheat on me. So he needs me to set him free" That was the gist of the conversation: his demand that I set him free and that we sign a separation agreement. If not, he will have to file for divorce on his own.

I told him that I will go to Europe to see my parents and will think about it and will either agree to let him go and sign the agreement or he will have to do everything on his own. And I thought and thought and cried and thought and cried some more and thought about the religious and moral aspects and in the end I wrote this letter:
Dear H,

I saw that you were in pain when we met and you told me that you really need your independence. You are free, H!

This is not what I would have wanted for us and my feelings for you are unchanged. But out of love for you and respect for your wishes, if this is what you really need, then you are free. I will sign the separation agreement.

I want to apologize once again for the pain that I have caused you. It was never intentional and it pains me too to know that I have hurt you in any way. I've always wanted to be a loving and
supportive partner. I regret my failure to read the signs of your
unhappiness; maybe if you communicated more we would have never been here. I deeply apologize for giving you the sense that I value my career more that you. That has never been the case, but
I know that seen from another angle it can look that way. I know I have been strong-willed and did not know how to listen carefully to your wishes. I hope I am now.

This is the most difficult moment with which I have been faced in my life as I am losing you, the person I love most. Nonetheless, beyond the pain, I thank you for all the love that you gave me in the past, all the wonderful moments, the learning and the growth!

And I know that although you are going through a difficult moment and you are not happy right now, you will navigate this period of change with success! You are a wonderful man, so sensitive and smart and good through-and-through and I have all the confidence in your power to find yourself and what you want!

Remember that I am your friend and will always be!

love,
Fourleafclover

Despite all the thinking I am still not sure if I should have stuck to my original point that I do not agree to the divorce. What made me write it was his pain when he was asking for his freedom, and the realization that he would hate me if I didn't release him. And the shred of hope that in the year between legal separation and divorce he might come back to his senses...

Well, he got it this week on Monday, thanked me, said he was moved and a bit speechless, a wonderful person, etc. On Wednesday he hired a lawyer and now wants to talk asap who gets what...

He says he "does't want to leave me without some money." I am thinking: obviously you didn't think that divorce means giving me half the money. He wants to use the agreement to twist my arm into asking for less. I never wanted to ask for half, but now I am getting angry...

I'm off to see his father, stepmom, and sister. Will report later.

[TimeHeals]

Pfft! His pain.

Stop grovelling. It obviously didn't work. He just stepped up the pace of the divorce.

Whether or not you can save your marriage, your focus needs to be on YOU. Can you make fourleafclover happy? I bet you can, but you have to stop worrying about "what is going to make him happy". That's his job, his focus, and your happiness is not part of HIS thinking.


Stop "talking" about divorce; that's why you hire a lawyer. Let your L do the D talk to his L. I am sure he would prefer it if he could walk out on his M and date many women with no consequences, and so on. That's not going to happen.

Your L will ask for what you are entitled to under the law. It's just business. Take yourself and your emotions out of that process.

Take your mind off of it by hiring a competent attorney, and put your focus on making you a better, healthier, happier person.

Screw everything else for now.

[pearlharbr]

^^^ Yes, all this!

Go back upthread and read robx's post (via Piano). Read it over and over until it sinks in.

[Piano]

Hey FLC, sorry you've been going through all this. Can understand why you wrote this kind of 'release letter', but yes perhaps it was too nice. My impression is that he is hellbent on having his freedom and your best bet it to stand out the way now.
Let him go on his journey and don't try and control this. You have said you piece. He knows you don't want this and that you love him. Now don't say it any more.

Time Heals, tell me why again it is good to have a L sort out the financials and to not 'talk divorce'? Sorry, I'm a bit slow on this point & feel I could use clarification for my own sitch also.

Just wanted to share, FLC, that my WH was also slightly amazed that divorce was going to cost him fincially and he also said exactly this: "all his life he did what other wanted him to do or what others thought would be good for him. Now it's time to do what he wants." which meant OW. His 'moral code' extended to telling me about the A,then leaving me pregnant. Niice.