That is my point. If I say to W "I am calling OMW to make protect our marriage" W will say "there is no marriage to protect" , "There is nothing going on, it was a friend of the opposite sex so that means something has to be going on? whatever think what you want"
So the only way I can justify calling OMW is to prove I know something is going on and the sacrifice of that will be exposing how I gather intel and I don't want to that therefore I cannot tell W that I will talk to OMW.
Right now and all day since this has occurred W has slept and gave me the silent treatment. Told her I was leaving and taking the dog with me, she just looked at me then closed her eyes again.
If there was any chance I think today killed it. For the first time since our sitch began she verbally admitted there was a chance and she was trying, now that she exposed some feelings I know she will now reconsider and push for separation. She said she has tried and still cannot be happy.
I wanted to say to her, that if she was committed to reconcile we can take the necessary steps to building a better relationship. I wanted to tell her that it took a lot for our marriage and relationship to get to this point and it will take a lot of work to improving it.
W had said during all this earlier when she mentioned she was trying but still not finding happiness that she never said anything because she did not want me to know she was vulnerable, I wanted to say "There is no reason to be vulnerable, I can understand if you have doubts or concerns about the process of reconciliation but the process will be quicker and healthier if we communicated to each other and worked together on this"
I just can't imagine her actually wanting to work on our marriage so soon after the last blow up.
Also, I spoke with my friend today. HE said he is about 50% sure they spoke yesterday. He said my W was down in training area and seen OM coming up from the stairway that leads to the training area and from what my friend told me, OM had no reason to be down there. He said he is not 100% sure that is the case but he will try to find out and let me know.
Also he said he has heard nothing about any managers being notified about the situation or about my W getting pulled aside and getting the talking to by any manager. SO now I am starting to wonder if OM is BSing again.
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
Maybe I should just lay it out there like lotus suggest.
To us it is an affair but to her it was just a friendship and she is set on thinking that. The only way I can ever prove to her we know its more than that is buy putting the facts out there but I am not willing to expose my intel gathering.
OIN MWD says this in her book, but I will put it more explicitly here for you :
What your wife SAYS to YOU, is NOT the SAME as what SHE is THINKING to HERSELF or saying to OM
You seem to think that your wife actually BELIEVES she wasn't having an affair and wasn't cheating... Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. I am positive your wife knew what she was doing and she KNOWS its not "just friends"
YOU can't get her to ADMIT that TO YOU, but she IS thinking it and KNOWS IT.
You don't NEED to CONVINCE her, you just need her to KNOW that YOU KNOW... which you ARE DOING...
Don't think for a second that her protesting that she and OM are just friends has anything to do with what she knows or believes.. It doens't.. its a WALL she's putting up to protect her reputation and to save face...
your wife does NOT want to ACNKNOWLEDGE right NOW that she WAS cheating... It has NOTHING to DO with what she BELIEVES... Your wife knows' she was cheating... She's no fool and she knows you aren't.. But right now, she is determined to save face and keep that wall up...
THe PROBLEM is that you THINK she BELIEVES that crap.. she does NOT believe she was just friends... She has convinced you she's deluded and believes her lies... she does NOT.
THe ONLY LIE she believes to be true right now is that OM and her had a potential future. That I think she is childish and deluded enough to believe.
You do NOT need to PROVE to her it was an affair. You just need to TELL her
We BOTH KNOW it was MORE than that. I am not going to argue, but I am no fool and neither is the rest of your workplace. Everyone knows what was happening. It's sad that it happened in the first place. People got hurt and trust got damaged in both our home and in OMW's home. I am no fool. I am man enough to ignore it, but I am also intelligent enough to know what was happening. I do NOT want to argue about it at all right now... Just KNOW that I KNOW...
And walk away...
That gives your wife some face while you maintain your own dignity.
The problem is
a. She won't admit the truth b. You refuse to be indignified with obvious lies
So just tell her
I know. Leave it for now, I do NOT need to prove it to you and you don't need to argue either.. We BOTH KNOW... Lets just leave it ALONE for now... I, unlike your workplace refuse to make it an issue. I am calling OMW to protect marriages and that's IT. I know what you two were up to and you know you two weren't just socializing either... Lets not dig a grave for ourselves digging evidence out of each other. That will just make us miserable... I know, you know, lets move on and just let it Go... in a few months this will be gone and we can forget about the whole painful thing. I got hurt, YOU got hurt... OMW got hurt... It's sad, but it happens. Let's not fight about it ok?
You see what I am doing here is giving HER some face, and you so no one has to feel humiliated. OIN, right now your wife feels humliated. This is part of why she won't admit the affair. You trying to prove she was cheating is just going to bring up her defenses. Let it GO.
You CAN let it GO and let her have her dignity AND you have yours. You just tell her you KNOW, it happens, move on... She realizes you aren't trying to villify her and then feels safer, and YOU don't feel like she thinks you are a fool.
It allows both of you to walk away with some dignity with minimal damage.
DO I bring this up even if the discussion has ended. DO I just walk up to her and tell her I need to talk to her about this?
During our conversation earlier I said things along those lines. I told her "I know more about what is going on than you think, and to me it is not just a friend, it was more than that" she said "think what you want, I know what it was"
I also said "These poems, lyrics, quotes I know they are intended for him" she said "Do you ever think they were intended for you? just because something does not exactly match the situation does not mean it does not apply" I said "to be honest NO, I don't think for one minute they had to do with us."
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
Maybe I should just lay it out there like lotus suggest.
To us it is an affair but to her it was just a friendship and she is set on thinking that. The only way I can ever prove to her we know its more than that is buy putting the facts out there but I am not willing to expose my intel gathering.
OIN MWD says this in her book, but I will put it more explicitly here for you :
What your wife SAYS to YOU, is NOT the SAME as what SHE is THINKING to HERSELF or saying to OM
You seem to think that your wife actually BELIEVES she wasn't having an affair and wasn't cheating... Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. I am positive your wife knew what she was doing and she KNOWS its not "just friends"
YOU can't get her to ADMIT that TO YOU, but she IS thinking it and KNOWS IT.
You don't NEED to CONVINCE her, you just need her to KNOW that YOU KNOW... which you ARE DOING...
Don't think for a second that her protesting that she and OM are just friends has anything to do with what she knows or believes.. It doens't.. its a WALL she's putting up to protect her reputation and to save face...
your wife does NOT want to ACNKNOWLEDGE right NOW that she WAS cheating... It has NOTHING to DO with what she BELIEVES... Your wife knows' she was cheating... She's no fool and she knows you aren't.. But right now, she is determined to save face and keep that wall up...
THe PROBLEM is that you THINK she BELIEVES that crap.. she does NOT believe she was just friends... She has convinced you she's deluded and believes her lies... she does NOT.
THe ONLY LIE she believes to be true right now is that OM and her had a potential future. That I think she is childish and deluded enough to believe.
You do NOT need to PROVE to her it was an affair. You just need to TELL her
We BOTH KNOW it was MORE than that. I am not going to argue, but I am no fool and neither is the rest of your workplace. Everyone knows what was happening. It's sad that it happened in the first place. People got hurt and trust got damaged in both our home and in OMW's home. I am no fool. I am man enough to ignore it, but I am also intelligent enough to know what was happening. I do NOT want to argue about it at all right now... Just KNOW that I KNOW...
And walk away...
That gives your wife some face while you maintain your own dignity.
The problem is
a. She won't admit the truth b. You refuse to be indignified with obvious lies
So just tell her
I know. Leave it for now, I do NOT need to prove it to you and you don't need to argue either.. We BOTH KNOW... Lets just leave it ALONE for now... I, unlike your workplace refuse to make it an issue. I am calling OMW to protect marriages and that's IT. I know what you two were up to and you know you two weren't just socializing either... Lets not dig a grave for ourselves digging evidence out of each other. That will just make us miserable... I know, you know, lets move on and just let it Go... in a few months this will be gone and we can forget about the whole painful thing. I got hurt, YOU got hurt... OMW got hurt... It's sad, but it happens. Let's not fight about it ok?
You see what I am doing here is giving HER some face, and you so no one has to feel humiliated. OIN, right now your wife feels humliated. This is part of why she won't admit the affair. You trying to prove she was cheating is just going to bring up her defenses. Let it GO.
You CAN let it GO and let her have her dignity AND you have yours. You just tell her you KNOW, it happens, move on... She realizes you aren't trying to villify her and then feels safer, and YOU don't feel like she thinks you are a fool.
You tell her that you know and do NOT engage any wall she puts up.
Here's your destructive dynamic :
a. You challenge your wife's claims b. Your wife puts up her defenses (manifested as lies and claims of innocence) c. You try to argue a case with evidence d. Your wife accuses you of spying, controlling, and secret-keeping e. You claim you were trying to protect your marriage
You both end up frustrated and humiliated 1. She humiliates you with lies 2. You humiliate her with the truth
Just tell her you know, and then BACK OFF, give her some ROOM to preserve some dignity... She won't admit it right now, but you CAN maintain you KNOW and leave it...
It allows both of you to walk away with some dignity with minimal damage.
YOU : I KNOW you two weren't just socializing WIFE : We're just friends, everyone is making a big deal out of nothing
What is going on in your wife's HEAD :
a. Wow, he does know what I was doing b. I feel like a fool; I got lied to by OM, and I got caught by my husband too c. Now he won't trust me, he didn't before, but now I just proved to him I'm not trustworthy d. I have made a huge mess here and it's all my fault e. Him accusing me of cheating makes feel so bad about myself f. I am going to make him stop - how can I get him to stop? g. I will just tell him we we were friends... That's it
Trust me, your wife's got all this in her head and more. Just tell her you know, GENTLY, and then tell her you are doing the work with OMW to repair damage so you and she can put it behind you.
You need to STOP taking what she SAYS ... SERIOIUSLY.. that's one of your HUGEST mistakes in this whole mess is when she says something, YOU TAKE IT IN... you let it get in and beat you up and make you feel worthless and angry.
You gotta step BACK and let it Go
What are you going to do when your kids one day yell at you that you are a horrible father because you grounded them for two weeks?
What are you gonna do when your kids attack you verbally for you parenting them? And they WILL, kids do that...
PARENTS IGNORE IT and dont' take it to HEART
YOU need to learn to do that.
What your wife says right now has nothing much at all to do with what she's thinking... There is a world of subtext going on that you need to learn to hear and work with WITHOUT the bad stuff getting to you...
Suit of armor man, that's what you need. An emotional suit of armor.
DO I bring this up even if the discussion has ended. DO I just walk up to her and tell her I need to talk to her about this?
During our conversation earlier I said things along those lines. I told her "I know more about what is going on than you think, and to me it is not just a friend, it was more than that" she said "think what you want, I know what it was"
I also said "These poems, lyrics, quotes I know they are intended for him" she said "Do you ever think they were intended for you? just because something does not exactly match the situation does not mean it does not apply" I said "to be honest NO, I don't think for one minute they had to do with us."
Nope
When SHE tries to criticize YOU for calling OMW or anything related...
Note :
What you told her before is an ACCUSATION. The way you write it, you sound like you are accusing her of something underhanded. Yes, what she did WAS underhanded, but she KNOWS that... you do NOT need to SHOVE it in her face.
You just need to GENTLY say "I know and you know that it was a lot more than you want everyone to think...I dont care.. I am doing the work to get it OUT of our home and behind is.. It's not healthy for you, me, or OMW to point fingers or gossip. I am repairing the damage and then I intend to put all of this behind us and hopefully OMW will be doing the same."
What I wrote above is NOT accusing her or gloating in any way that you know her secrets etc... its a gentle explanation of what is in your head and a gentle invitation to work WITH you to get PAST it all...
I assume you shouted what you typed too.. Just stay calm even when she shouts and waves her arms.. think Mr Spock here...
I agree with Allen that she tells you one thing thinking she is keeping her secret to herself. She will not reveal her secret to you no matter what you say. It is her one possession from OM. But I have stood in her shoes, and it is one thing to say "I'm leaving" and a whole other thing to do it. So again, I say, it is time to, as my father would say, "poop or get off the pot". If she is going, then go. If she is staying, then get professional help and fix it. No other choices. Sticking around and claiming that you are making her miserable is not an option. Go, or stay and fix it. And yes, she will run crying to her father. If he is any kind of father he will tell her to work it out with her husband.
Unfortunatley Lotus her father is divorced and ENCOURAGES her behaviour... He treats her like an innocent child and texts her sabotage regularly... He's a marriage meddler and poisoning her mind.
I am inclined think a lot of the garbage you get OIN is because of FIL's meddling..I think he's the one teaching her all her bad habits... He's ignorant, childish, and opinionated.. Just like your wife right now.
Look, you need to preserve your dignity, I get that. No one likes being lied to when they KNOW it is a lie.
Your wife wants her dignity too, so she has to hold onto this as a "frienship" right now.
The ONLY way you can protect BOTH of you and avoid doing damage to the marriage is to tell her
I know, you know, we both know, It happens, lets move on
And do NOT argue the case like a courtroom lawyer...
your wife will TRY to argue, ignore it...
Just put it gently and over TIME your wife will gradually accept that you know when she realizes you are NOT going to vilify her for it.
That's the problem a lot of the time, people cheat and they want to get it overwith but they feel like they will be vilified for it so they try to keep it a secret.
I just told my wife outright "I'm no fool, and neither are you. We both know the truth so lets just leave all that behind us for now... It's not going to make either of us feel better arguing to spare ourselves some embarassment"
You are embarassed OM turned you into a cuckhold Your wife is embarassed OM make her into a fool at work
Just tell her you know, simply and gently, and then move on.
It sounds like your wife DOES want to exchagne more kindnesses to explore rebuilding things... Her instincts are good there..
She just has to realize that the calls to OMW will end and it is NOT to make HER out as a villain... its to protect both marriages, provide OMW a sense of safety, and to allow everyone to process things in orde to move quickly to CLOSURE
Oftentimes OIN, repeating something, even if it is rejected will eventually be implicitly accepted.
I think your wife knows you know. I think she feels like you are accusing her of something terrible and doens't want it rubbed in her face right now.
Just tell her you konw to get the idea in her head, then drop it and make you both a nice dinner and stay out of the argument.
Wait for her to lie to you again and just gently tell her you know and then walk away to make a nice dinner..
When your wife sees you aren't trying to beat her up for the lying she will be a lot less defensive.
Unfortunatley Lotus her father is divorced and ENCOURAGES her behaviour... He treats her like an innocent child and texts her sabotage regularly... He's a marriage meddler and poisoning her mind.
I am inclined think a lot of the garbage you get OIN is because of FIL's meddling..I think he's the one teaching her all her bad habits... He's ignorant, childish, and opinionated.. Just like your wife right now.
Look, you need to preserve your dignity, I get that. No one likes being lied to when they KNOW it is a lie.
Your wife wants her dignity too, so she has to hold onto this as a "frienship" right now.
The ONLY way you can protect BOTH of you and avoid doing damage to the marriage is to tell her
I know, you know, we both know, It happens, lets move on
And do NOT argue the case like a courtroom lawyer...
your wife will TRY to argue, ignore it...
Just put it gently and over TIME your wife will gradually accept that you know when she realizes you are NOT going to vilify her for it.
That's the problem a lot of the time, people cheat and they want to get it overwith but they feel like they will be vilified for it so they try to keep it a secret.
I just told my wife outright "I'm no fool, and neither are you. We both know the truth so lets just leave all that behind us for now... It's not going to make either of us feel better arguing to spare ourselves some embarassment"
You are embarassed OM turned you into a cuckhold Your wife is embarassed OM make her into a fool at work
Just tell her you know, simply and gently, and then move on.
It sounds like your wife DOES want to exchagne more kindnesses to explore rebuilding things... Her instincts are good there..
She just has to realize that the calls to OMW will end and it is NOT to make HER out as a villain... its to protect both marriages, provide OMW a sense of safety, and to allow everyone to process things in orde to move quickly to CLOSURE
Oftentimes OIN, repeating something, even if it is rejected will eventually be implicitly accepted.
I think your wife knows you know. I think she feels like you are accusing her of something terrible and doens't want it rubbed in her face right now.
Just tell her you konw to get the idea in her head, then drop it and make you both a nice dinner and stay out of the argument.
Wait for her to lie to you again and just gently tell her you know and then walk away to make a nice dinner..
When your wife sees you aren't trying to beat her up for the lying she will be a lot less defensive.
Saving face and protecting ego is almost automatic when your blown out like this. You can't even prevent it, because it is painful. It takes time to come out of the ego built off an affair, and to figure out that the face your trying to save is not even the one you WANT.
Friend txt me this morning told me that female co-worker who is friends with my W came up to him and said "W name, wants to ask you a question"
At that time my W had yet to go up to my friend and ask him that question.
Friend said that female co-worker said that my W text her and also said to her that it is not fair that I talk to OMW and she cannot talk to OM.
W believes I was lying about what happened yesterday and won't believe a word I say.
I was so tempted when W got home from work to bring up the conversation we had yesterday and convince her I was not lying and that any contact I made with OM/OMW ever is not the same as the contact she had with OM.
I held back so far but the urge to bring this all up is eating away at me. I W thinks I am being dishonest which is enabling her to think it's OK for her to be dishonest, an it is not.
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
