Yes, my daughter is on the same bill, and I frequently check her numbers to see who she's calling. And no, I can't guess the pin. When I asked him what he was hiding, he asked me why I was snooping.
A "cycle" starts when the same behavior is repeated over and over for a period of time and there is NO end to it-it "circles" in other words. And the person repeating the "cycle" must have help to break free from it.
Something HAS to give when a cycle starts, someone's behavior has to change or a confrontation has to ensue.
For example:
Say a man has OW, but wants his wife too seeing them both because he is too weak to decide what he wants. The wife states her stand on it, and he promises to get rid of OW. But he ignores what she says and lies to her so he can keep right on seeing OW AND his wife, too-"fence-sitting" is a better word for that or "cake-eating".
After giving the man a reasonable period of time-usually a week, the wife then needs to change her behavior toward the man, "cutting him off", "going dark" AFTER telling him ONE MORE TIME where she stands.
In effect, the change of behavior SHOULD break the "cycle".
When it doesn't break, something is wrong-the wife MUST stick to her guns and NOT allow him to see her at all-"cycles" are difficult to break when the wife lacks the strength to enforce her stand. IF he moves on, she has lost nothing, but allowing for human nature, most of the time, the man will go on and dump the OW, coming back to the wife, knowing she means business, and won't allow him to get away with this.
You see, people will do what we allow them to get away with, and when the SAME problem crops up AGAIN and AGAIN, it begins what is called a "cycle" and a change in behavior is called for to break it. And that change MUST be solid, no waffling-self-respect is at usually at stake.
In MLC, there are certain times when this will work, and you must know when those times are.
I've seen several cases here of "cycles" and some them continue on and on, because the LBS lacks the strength to make a stand, afraid of being willing to lose all to possibly regain the MLC'er.
As long as the MLC'er is waffling between the wife and OW, it is a good time to break a cycle.
It might try the patience of the LBS, but in the end, unless the MLC'er goes nuts and chooses OW, it should work.
There are other "cycles" to look at, in the cases of disrespect-controlling and manipulation can be stopped.
It calls, again, for a change in behavior-reacting in a way that the MLC'er does NOT expect, and refusing to take anymore.
My husband used to control me with anger and threats when I confronted him, and he used to say things that would "shut me up". If he didn't want to discuss something he used to say hurtful things to me, so I would withdraw and say nothing else to him. And this cycle was going on while he was in his MLC-I stopped that cycle by changing my behavior and reactions to his hateful statements-the next thing he did was threaten to leave, and I, instead of crying and begging like I did before, just cut him loose, and invited him to leave if that was what HE wanted to do.
He's never repeated that behavior again, and that was the only "cycle" I got stuck in.
The bottom line is, you have to overcome your FEAR, and make a stand against what you know is WRONG, not worrying about what might happen, just knowing your self-respect is at stake, and being strong enough to stand.
If he really wants to leave..etc, he will do what HE wants to do, and there's NOTHING you can do about it. But you cannot become a "doormat" for him to walk on. You must be resolute and strong without becoming soft. And you don't have to put up with wrong behavior. It CAN be stopped, point-blank.
This is a Q and A from LSL, asking me to further define what must be done during a cycle
This does MORE explaining and helps to further your understanding.
HOW DOES ONE DETERMINE THE CHANGE NEEDED. IS IT BOUNDARIES, 180'S, SOME COMBINATION? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you commit to a course of action-the "consequences" of that action no longer matter-you are letting go of that. Making your stand is NOT considered 'punishment'-that is up to the Lord to "punish" people by causing them to reap what they sow.
You are simply deciding what you will and won't tolerate and taking steps to CHANGE that situation, through actions and/or confrontation. It is the equivalent of saying "NO MORE" and not backing down.
The actions you take depend upon the situation faced-I outlined two different examples of making such a stand in my last post.
Most situations are NOT so different, LSL, and the "bully's" reactions are usually NOT that different, unless he/she is totally twisted, and/or at the "point of no return"-or is determined to leave forever, anyway. OR, even, they IGNORE the LBS actions, and just continue their unacceptable behavior-in THAT case-you either ACCEPT it or NOT-your choice all the way around. There are some "die-hards" that will NEVER see what they are doing to hurt themselves and others-and of course that is covered in psychiatric disorders. They are beyond help-and you cannot help them, and MUST just let them go totally-getting on with your life.
What behavior you are standing up against determines the changes that have to be made in the LBS-this is "solution-based" thinking-it DEPENDS on what you are facing, LSL as to what you need to do. IF one thing doesn't work, try something else-each person is different and it might require a combination of things to bring about a desired result. No one can decide that for you-it is always YOUR choice-and you know your husband better than anyone else.
IS THE ONLY "SOLID" OPTION IN A OW-CYCLE AN ULTIMATUM - or ARE THERE OTHER OPTIONS LBS HAS TO PREVENT WAS/'caker' "FROM GETTING AWAY WITH"(NO CONSEQUENCES) THIS BEHAVIOR ? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several possibilities the LBS can use, and the only three options are:
1. Ultimatum, which in the case of MLC won't work unless the MLC'er is READY to give OW up, and is attempting to CAKE-EAT.
2. Going dark without saying a word, but the WAS won't "get it" so a confrontation IN THE CASE OF OW is usually necessary BEFORE going dark.
3. Just tolerating the situation, and going on endlessly for years, allowing the cycle to continue-had to throw that one in-it is the LEAST desireable option, but one that is usually chosen because fear dictates the actions of the LBS.
I, quite honestly, don't see any OTHER ways of handling this type of situation WITHOUT a confrontation of some sort-the LBS has to come to the point of deciding what he/she will and won't tolerate and take action-and that course of action is UP to the individual who is on the receiving end of this.
WILL ONE KNOW WHEN THIS WILL WORK - IS THERE ANY INDICATION AS WHAT THOSE TIMES ARE? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had my insight and someone to guide me in this, LSL-but your own intuition is your BEST indicator--use the tools you have been given through DB, self-help books, the Bible, and this messageboard to help you-that is what they are here for-for one thing.
On the other hand, watching the situation is one of the BEST indicators as to when the BEST time is to confront-I can't exactly explain it, but YOU WILL KNOW-it goes back to your intuition-and the "cycle" that develops will become so clear even the person involved within CAN'T miss it unless they are totally BLIND, or choose to be. Depends on, again, what each of us are willing to live with and tolerate. If you're not satisfied with a situation, CHANGE it, taking the steps necessary to do so.
Again, when you take a course of action, you LET GO of what the consequences may be(spouse goes on and leaves, etc). But understand we are human and there is so much even WE will tolerate before something must be done, and each of our tolerance levels are different-what is totally UNacceptable to one person may be totally Acceptable to another-each one of us are different-those differences must be taken into account.
In short, we each KNOW, deep within our hearts what we can and can't live with.
DOES THE "STAND" MEAN ASKING SPOUSE TO LEAVE? OR DOES IT MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS (ex.BOUNDARIES) FOR DIFFERENT CYCLES? DOES IT MEAN WAS LEAVE IN CASE OF OW? DOES THE STAND DEMAND A CHOICE ON THE WAS, WHERE THE LBS HAS TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH CHOICE RESULTS/CONSEQUENCES? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is totally up to the LBS-different circumstances call for different courses of actions-again it DEPENDS on the circumstances-and when you KNOW the options you have, you can make a choice that "fits" within those options.
In MLC, there DOES come a time when you will have to "be willing to lose all to possibly regain him" and the circumstances ARE differing.
In my own case-and I know I've told this story before-I was attempting to hold my husband accountable for OW, plus his behavior, and I triggered a tantrum in him--now, in the past he'd always controlled me through anger and threats, and that had always worked then, but not at the time I confronted him.
He threatened to leave me because in his words "You won't shut up", and I released him-telling him if that was what he wanted to do, do it, but don't threaten me with it again-and I never raised my voice-I had learned TWO lessons that day-the first was to stay quiet in conflict, and the second was the "being willing to lose all to possibly regain him" lesson.
He threatened me with other stuff(no physical violence, though--that line had been drawn YEARS before) and I just kept putting the decision to leave or not to leave BACK on his shoulders and was calm about it.
He never left.
He has NOT repeated this particular behavior again-and at one time it WAS a bone of contention between us-I had ALLOWED it for many years, but no more-I had made my stand, and he responded to that stand by STOPPING the behavior-I didn't give him the SAME reaction I had given over the years-I had changed the tapes.
Now, remember the decision I made at that time was NOT made ahead of time-it was made in a split-second, because the tantrum and threats were made UNEXPECTEDLY-I did NOT know what he was going to do until he did it.
But, you see, I was guided into holding him accountable, and I was "pushed" until I did it-the Lord would NOT allow me to back down, as the "old" me would have done before-I could NOT revert back to "old" behaviors-it was placed within me to confront and I did-but you see, WHEN I did I "let go" of the consequences of my actions-leaving them to the LORD to work out.
If he HAD left, there was NOTHING I could have done to stop it-and I knew that, too, even BEFORE I confronted-but I had to be READY to accept whatever the result would be-it was up to my husband whether he stayed or went, not me.
All these things passed through my mind that day, but I settled myself afterwards, knowing I had done all I could, but I wasn't willing to let him manipulate me anymore-I wasn't a child, and neither was he-and he DID respect me a great deal more after that.
Now, concerning making him leave in the case of OW DOES have its advantages-it causes him to "miss" the LBS, and OW has the burden of meeting ALL his needs, not just some of them-and she doesn't know him the way the LBS does, and so he becomes dissatisfied with the affair and it burns out--UNLESS he is determined to start over anyway-again that is BEYOND the LBS' control--everything comes down to being willing to LET GO of controlling ANYTHING concerning another person-because really, we don't OWN anyone except OURSELVES, and all things happen for a reason.
The STAND CAN mean going through with what the LBS has said he/she will do if certain conditions are not met, and that is NOT control-the WAS has broken their marriage vows, and the LBS has the right to demand a choice, but in MLC, that can happen only when the MLC'er is CAKE-EATING.
Do NOT make your stand UNTIL you are READY to live with the consequences of what you are saying you will do-that is WHY I say you CANNOT waffle-you must stand strong and be willing to go through it.
Otherwise, the cycle will definitely repeat itself, and the time will be lengthened to ensure you learn the lesson and "get it" right.
One more thing, even if the WAS REFUSES to leave-you can STILL make your stand and go at least "dim" on them-refusing to have much of ANYTHING to do with him/her-and sticking to it, getting on with your life.
Though I talked my husband out of leaving when I found out about OW, and he treated me terribly, I ended up going totally "dim" on him, and that sent him the message that he could LOSE me-I was calm, quiet, but firm that this had better stop-but I never threatened him or said anything that indicated I was going to leave-I just had very little to do with him for awhile-and he got the message, loud and clear.
But, deep down, I hurt so badly that it was unreal-but that did pass, in time, and I felt I was doing the right thing, and knew it for sure when I observed him coming back toward me later on.
Whew, Lord, I hope I have explained this in a way that will help you ALL to understand how this works--I KNOW how it works having been there before, but explaining it in a way that is understood is hard, but I think I got it right.
me,34 exH,34 S,16 months S:3/31/09-left for OW started DBing 10/09 d final: sometime 10/10 current: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2022856&page=1 met in 2004
This is really, REALLY good! Thanks so much for posting it. I've read both the link you posted and checked out Jim Conway's site. Things are beginning to make more sense now.
I know I can't change him, though Lord knows I've tried! A friend pointed out that in addition to the MLC, WH has NO frame of reference for a long, happy marriage in his DNA. Chaos and abuse on both sides of his family for generations. Starting around the Civil War, EVERY male on his father's side has either divorced or abandoned his family by age 50.
By contrast, we have very few divorces in my family. My maternal grandparents divorced in the 1930's and there was such a stigma attached to it that my mother rarely talked about her childhood or her father.
Startling stats:
*In marriages where both sets of parents divorced, the divorce rate is about 80%.
*In marriages where one person's parents divorced and one didn't, the divorce rate is about 50%.
*In marriages where neither set of parents divorced, the divorce rate is about 10%.
Staggering, huh?
We repeat what we learn from our parents, to stay together or to walk away. SCARY! I'll be sure to gear my children toward finding mates from non-divorced households!
Right now I'm making plans and gathering intel. After reading the link you posted above and considering the timeline, I believe we're coming up on year 4 of the MLC and 3.5 on the EA. Maybe the end's in sight. I'm still going day-to-day, good days/bad days, but at least I'm understanding more and can act accordingly. It makes me realize that this has much less to do with me and more to do with his MLC and how he was raised.
"*In marriages where both sets of parents divorced, the divorce rate is about 80%."
wow- I am screwed and so is S!
me,34 exH,34 S,16 months S:3/31/09-left for OW started DBing 10/09 d final: sometime 10/10 current: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2022856&page=1 met in 2004
Not necessarily. There are still 20% who manage to make it in spite of their family histories.
I've been talking to Larry Bilotta at StopYourDivorcein4Weeks.com. He's controversial and kind of expensive (thank goodness for payment plans!), but after my 3rd call yesterday -- where he told me that he was AMAZED that WH has held out this long in re-enacting the sins of his father (the average is about 7 years) and WS would have done this to ANYONE he married, not just me -- I'm beginning to see and understand things very differently.
We're all here in this forum with our hearts on our sleeves because we can't understand why, if we're good people, we're being forced to endure such heartache of a failing marriage. The reality is that it has very little to do with us and almost everything to do with our families of origin.
Jesse James said in an interview earlier this week that the reason he cheated on Sandra Bullock was because of an abusive childhood. Once upon a time, I would have scoffed at that, because my childhood was very Norman Rockwell-like and I couldn't begin to relate.
But having reviewed WH childhood with Larry and seeing how the pattern has repeated itself generation after generation in his family history, I'm not scoffing anymore. I'm thinking, "OMG! Have I scarred my kids?"
The good news is you CAN break the cycle IF you do something different, as you pointed out in your previous post. My next few calls with Larry will show me how to do that, and I'm excited beyond belief...
We fall in love with and marry people we have lots in common with and/or who have something we want but don't have.
My husband and I were physically, mentally, and competitively attracted to each other from the start, plus he was spontaneous and did lots of fun stuff (unlike my family) while I had drama-free holidays and a loving extended family (unlike his family), so we felt we complimented each other nicely. I thought we did for more than two decades.
The problem is, according to Larry, we bring our family histories together when we marry and often do things we learned from our parents without even thinking about it. He calls this the "invisible lifestyle," which is all the "how to's" we learned from our parents, like how to clean house, which way to hang the toilet paper, how to spend the weekend, and how often to entertain.
Most of the little stuff is easily negotiated, but some "invisible lifestyle" differences are SO big, they begin to cause problems once the honeymoon is over. Finances, religion, work ethic, family time, etc., can all cause tension which becomes insurmountable over time. This unhappiness can make one or both partners susceptible to addictions, affairs, mid-life crises, etc.
If you have walls or ceilings with cracks in them, the cracks are NOT the problem. The problem is the foundation is weak, which causes the walls to shift, which makes them crack.
As gut-wrenching as it's been, my husband's EA is NOT the problem. The problem is that fun, spontaneous guy I married now has a demanding job and three kids and little time or money to do the fun, spontaneous stuff he used to do...which made the siren call of a cute, brown-nosing grad student completely irresistible. He didn't have to go skiing or hiking for cheap thrills. He just had to go to work.
Couple that with a MLC, a climate of acceptance at the university and a long history of infidelity on both sides of his family, and I didn't stand a chance.
Larry advocates helping you stop the divorce in 4 weeks by "popping the hood" on your marriage and taking a closer look at those "invisible lifestyle" foundations you both brought to your marriage. Through a series of 8 phone calls over 4 weeks, you root out those big problems and determine a plan of repair.
Again, it's controversial, but my eyes have been opened to things I never saw before. My WH was raised in an abusive household by people who were abused as kids by parents who were abused as kids. It's shocking to see what gets handed down from generation to generation along with the sterling silver and fruit cake recipes.
I used to think blaming parents for problems was a total cop-out because I came from a loving family who treated me well - no Oprah moments for us. The reality is that you can't choose which family you're born into, be it prince or pauper, loving or neglectful, good or bad. You can only choose to repeat or reject what you learned growing up, and since being a black sheep requires a lot of work and a thick skin, most people just do as their parents did - good or bad.
It can lead to all SORTS of problems later on (see story of WH EA, above).
I know that's a long answer to your short question, but I wanted to share a little of what I've learned. I'd encourage you to apply for Larry's free 30-minute consultation by writing your story. If you're selected, you can chat with him and get a feel for how things work and see if it's right for you before you commit any cash. I'm glad I did - I'm already feeling like a new woman!
but what if the spouse is having an AFFAIR- addictive relationship- is in the fog--doesn't want to end it...
me,34 exH,34 S,16 months S:3/31/09-left for OW started DBing 10/09 d final: sometime 10/10 current: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2022856&page=1 met in 2004
Haven't gotten to that part yet - will address it this week as we form an action plan.
We've been looking at our backgrounds, what got us to this point, and I've learned a technique to control my emotions that works REALLY well.
This week I start the "Environment Changer" part of the program where I'll learn how to start meeting the needs I've not been meeting that makes OW so attractive. I'm not exactly sure how it works yet, but in looking over the pre-call homework, it looks like it shows you how to recreate the mindset you had when you were dating, when all you saw in each other was the good and fascinating. You know -- where he and OW are now. You learn how to usurp THAT relationship by creating a new obsession for WS...with you!
If it's anything like my calls with Larry, it's going to work like a charm. Larry is very positive and in every phone call I've had with him, he tells me things like how smart I am, how quick my mind works, how good I'm going to be at this, how this isn't my fault, etc. In short, he builds me up and makes me feel like I'm a competent, powerful person again - something I haven't felt since this nightmare began! I look forward to every call with him. Who wouldn't want to be around someone who makes them feel so good?
WH has decided that I'm the cause of all of his problems and OW is the solution. Nothing I've done to this point has changed his opinion.
But if I can learn how to harness this technique and replace the old program of "wife = problems, OW = solution" with "OW = problems, wife = solution" then I can break through the fog and finally give that ho her walking papers. Woo-hoo!
I've tried variations of the positive attitude before with limited success, but I believe what I'm going to learn this week is a plan that's specific to my WS, given his personality and family history. Larry has also eluded to the fact that once you master this technique, you can use it with your kids, friends, family, co-workers, etc. to put a whole new spin on life.
A panacea?
Lord I hope so! I haven't felt this good or been this hopeful in YEARS...
Just finished the pre-call homework and was VERY wrong about my above assessment. I won't give away "the goods" out of respect to Larry, but will say the solution is both simple and ingenious.
I need to go tack my white horse right now, but will report more on how it's going later in the week...
