The only small item I might challenge is the use of the term "heart" when referring to infidelity pulling one back in.. It's not your "heart" or even your emotions.. it's an addiction and your imbalanced and unhealthy brain chemistry pulling you back in... Use of the term "heart" romanticizes things over much... One woudln't use "heart" when referring to a gambling habit, or a hoarding compulsion, or alcoholism.
I love the position about the battle ongoing inside, and I think we CAN see that with OIN's wife here... she needs TIME to emotionally process all of this and get her brain back into a healthy balance...
Demanding things from her isnt' going to solve anything. Serious commitment at THIS TIME is NOT REALISTIC
Courstesy in word is realistic, but not serious commitment... no way is she ready for that right now...
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
I agree with the way Allen has expressed his opinion of all of this. And this kind of sums up what I've tried to say:
Quote:
A person can be furuious but still offer up a please and thank you... and over time it DOES sneak into the brain and warm the relationship...
Exactly. Trying to live under the same roof while being respectul.
But, I don't agree with DLS about the way he sees it:
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For me an apology would be a complete recommittal to the marriage. It would show in everything that the WAW does, they would take it seriously and give respect and time.
Then you don't fully understand the deep stuff that the WAW is still going through. Sometimes she says to herself, "Today I decide to end it will OM", the the next day she might be strong enough to say, "Today I decide not to get a D", then the next day she makes another decision. She has a battle raging inside of her and she's trying to do the "right thing" even if her brain and her heart is screaming to do differently. Don't you think that deserves a little bit of credit? That is VERY hard to do when you are despartely unhappy. She is trying to grab ahold of something and pull herself up to where she can say, "Today I decide to live with my H".
sandi2, what I did not explain is I know there is a time factor. It took time for the relationship between WAS and LBS to become undone, it will take piece by piece and step by step to go into the new relationship. There are occasions where the WAS might come "running" home and happy to do it. For example: the affair partner turned out to be a murderer, was doing an investigation on them, was raping them, etc. This is not likely or the norm.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
But, when the LBH is not satisfied with that and he demands or sits back expecting an apology for her sins.......then that attitude comes across to the WAW loud & clear....and it can interfer with her feelings of remorse. Therefore, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I don't think we can expect grovelling. We can expect that someone learned their lesson, and in time wants to make sure that they convey our value to us. It should show up in the priority the WAS places upon us and the marriage.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
It would be the same as if a good friend of yours got influenced and turned on you putting you in danger, in the end the friend knew they were wrong. If the friend wants to recommit to the friendship, it would show in transparency, his attitude and respect toward you. None of us want anyone to grovel.
I don't agree. The intimate, complex relationship between a H & W cannot be compared to someone who is a friend. You don't live with a friend. You are not physically intimate nor share children (and a ton of other reasons). You can apologize easier to a friend than you can your own S in some cases. (However, if your WAW actually put your life in "danger"....then I could understand you expecting an apology for that!)
I was trying to make an analogy outside of marriage, thats the best I can think of. I was trying to show a strong trust based friendship that ended with a deep betrayal. What is messing me up is how we forget our spouse was our friend. Some of our WAS's did put our lives and livelihoods in danger with their actions. Its why a simple "i'm sorry" is not going to cut it. I explained to my current wife, that when I was more on the "player" side of things, I knew of professional OM's who prey'ed on a situation like ours. They are of course going to pleasure themself with your wife, while gaining knowledge on your maritial situation, assets, relationships, business matters, etc. Also sometimes for fun, they would target the husband and play with his life. So if the husband recieved a random act of violence, got shot, got his car stolen - it was a good chance it was the OM or his cronies. Its why I say its not a joke, and why I say if you want to brings harms way to the OM, do it. You never know what he was going to do to you.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Ah, isn't it great that we can all share our thoughts?
So sandi2, was a former WAW. How would a LBH go about regaining his WAW, in that she has a high interest level, high respect, high passion - all that stuff that probably initially brought them together. All of this and also losing the desire to have affairs, because they really don't want to lose LBH?
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
I'm thankful for sandi2's insights and contributions. I also agree that feelings of entitlement grow during the affair. The WAS might not even have a clue that by starting and continuing in their affair that they are going to basically disenfranchise their spouse.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
So sandi2, was a former WAW. How would a LBH go about regaining his WAW, in that she has a high interest level, high respect, high passion - all that stuff that probably initially brought them together. All of this and also losing the desire to have affairs, because they really don't want to lose LBH?
Hey, I am all of those things you've just described in that WAW... Seriously, if a woman has those qualities, it is even tougher for both people, and I don't mean that in a bad way.
That's kind of like asking me how to go about getting someone to fall in-love with you. Except I believe the second time around is much harder. As I harp all the time, the number one most important thing is that she respect you. Don't worry about sexual attraction or anything else until she truly respects her man. A lot of the other things will fall into place once the respect has been restored. Along with respect will come admiration for her H. Of course the more damage that's been done........well, you know the answer to that.
I believe the sexual attraction is vital! If it doesn't return in a couple of years, then therapy or a medical doctor is needed. It returns faster for some, but when there is depression or lack of sex hormones....then there can be real problems in the R.
I guess I am very weird compared to most, but I never really thought of my H like so many people refer to their S "as their best friend". I never thought of him that way before we were engaged or even now. I thought of him in terms of my lover/husband......but as a friend, he stinks! I had to find friendship elsewhere. He didn't have friends he ran around with before or after we M. Maybe he didn't make a good friend with others, either. He has become a little better since my EA. That really shook him to the core.
It does take so much more time than LBH's realize when they first arrive here on the board. I have been asked how long it took me, but I don't tell, usually, b/c I know it will be so discouraging.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
I don't see it that way. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I work in law enforcement so maybe I see everything in black and white. Everyday I deal with people who make choices. I can tell you from my experience that almost all of them, with the exception of the few suffering from mental illness, know what they're doing is wrong. They simply choose to do it anyway. The fact that there may be mitigating circumstances doesn't matter, they had an opportunity to make a choice and they chose the behavior that either benefits them the most or feels the best. To me, cheating si no different. Before this so called "addiction" takes place they make a choice to turn away from their marriage and engage in behavior they know to be inappropriate. So many people seek out some underlying trauma or whatever to justify their spouses infidelity, it helps to try to mitigate the pain. Whatever works for you. In my experience in life and in work, is that some people are just selfish. They will always put their self interest above the well being of others. There is no cause and affect, they're just low quality people.
Interesting CK... It will be even MORE interesting to hear from OIN, as he is a Police Officer and works in law enforcement as well...
Note : The argument that infidelity is an addiction isn't some wild claim. There have been scientific tests done on the brain to compare the brain chemistry of those having an affair with drug addicts, alcoholics etc... The patterns were the same in both samples...
I hear you... And yes I am in no way justifying or excusing the behaviour... I DO think reparations are in order... The reconcilliation process is part of that repair effort... Consider it public service...
My concern is more for the interloping third party.. particularly if they are single... Attacking a marriage that is in trouble is pretty much the same as pouring gasoline on a house fire... I would be the first one in line to lobby for a criminal law against violating a marriage like that...
But I am a bit more understanding when it comes to the wayward spouse.. most of my condemnation goes to the interloper that took advantage of someone at a troubled time.
Consider it the drug addict vs the drug pusher... I am more after the pusher than the addict.
I can forgive the addict, but I DO think the pusher belongs behind bars.
This morning dragged. I woke up early to go to court, When I got home W was up and making herself something to eat then she went back up to bed. I went up to the bedroom and changed out of my work uniform and laid down in bed to get in a nap before work tonight, W watched TV. I dosed off and when I woke up W was in the shower and a co-worker of mine was calling me.
After I got dressed and ready to go grocery shopping, W was getting ready as well but I was not sure for what. I walked in the room and said "I am heading to go shopping, did you want to join me" W replied "Yes" and so we went.
W, at times...again, was short with me, not as bad as she was in the past...this is more like she is disinterested or resentful toward me.
There are times where maybe I get too close and W does the pull away thing...Not as haste as she use to but more nonchalantly.
We had some good conversation...
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
I think I missed some posts here. I didn't see the ones from Canadian Kid or the responses to him about what I had said. So, if OIN will be patient with me, I would like to address some things CK said.
Quote:
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
I wish I knew your age, b/c that would help me. I certainly don't want to sound as if I am talking down to you or anything like that. I do know how to "respect" people and I want that to show through what I am about to say.
Anyway, I wish you could understand....but I know you can't b/c your mind is closed to it and b/c you've apparently never been on this side. But I truly want you to know that I never woke up one morning and decided I would have an A. I never....NEVER felt entitled to have an A. Why didn't I just get the hell out of my M if it was really that bad? B/c I had not made plans to cheat. I had not made previous plans to leave my M. Did I make a knowing choice about contact OM? Of course I did. However, in some cases, things are not always as simple as others make it sound.
Have you ever heard how a frog can be boiled alive? I bet you have but in case someone is reading who doesn't know the story... then please bear with me. If you want to boil a frog, you do not place him in hot boiling water b/c he'll jump right out of the pot. Instead, you place him in a pot of lukewarm water and turn the fire on under the pot. You gradually warm the water until it boils. Why doesn't the frog jump out? B/c he did not realize his blood was the same temperture as the water and he was cooked before he knew to save himself.
You refered to me (or WAW's as a whole) in very unflatering terms, CK, and even though I might deserve to hear that...it still hurts. It hurts b/c that WAW was not who I was before or who I've been since that time. That is not the girl my parents raised or the young lady my H M. She is not the mother of my children. She is not the role model her church members have looked up to her entire adult life.
You see, I use to be YOU in the form of a female. That's right, I saw things just the way you described in your response to what I had said. I was judgmental and self-righteous. There were no excuses for any sin whatsoever....but cheating...well, that was just plain low-down. Oh, and I'm sure I rejected any idea of giving such a sinner a second chance or even listening to the whys or wherefores of their story.....b/c after all, look back at the before paragraph to see what a "special" person I was. (In case there's doubt...I am being sarcastic here.)
You spoke of strength of character.....well, I actually thought I had exceptional character. My parents had raised me with all the right traits. But then I suppose I must have lost all strength of character, right? Does one lose good character and moral judgment for all eternity if they commit one sin? How about two or more sins? Can they ever gain any purpose in life other than to be considered a cheater and a selfish, low quality human being? Does that mean they have no chance at ever tasting grace and that they might as well burn in the everlasting flames of hell? Tell me CK, if you have a daughter some day who should make this very unwise....and perhaps even desparate choice, what would you pick as her sentence? And since "you" raised her, instilling values in her....would you tell her she is of no worth or purpose.....that you no longer love her? Or, would you cry for what happened and for the pain that had touched everyone concerned? Most of all, would you really feel that she was a low quality human being? I hope not, I really hope not. We never know when that might happen to one of our daughters, so be careful before you speak too harshly b/c she will remember those words.
I can't imagine what you must see in your line of work. If a person could be in law enforcement and not get hard-hearted would seem like a miracle, I suppose. But somehow I don't think that law enforcement has everything to do with how you feel about this issue. I don't think bad of you CK....not at all. I am concerned about you. Anytime a heart is hardened....joy has a very difficult time getting inside. Bitterness......that is what makes a person ugly on the inside, and I hope for your sake that you can get past this.
I do not want you to think that I am making excuses for myself or any WAW b/c I'm not. If you do not like my mentality, that's your choice....and I understand. Remember, I used to be just like you. But the day I messed up, brought my judge's seat crashing down. I believe that is the day I started to become a "real" human being. And, CK......I have not only tasted grace, but fed upon it...and I try real hard to pay it forward.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Seriously, if a woman has those qualities, it is even tougher for both people, and I don't mean that in a bad way.