I'm not saying it's easy, Sandi -- in fact, I know from my wife's own experience that it's NOT -- but I do think that "courteous and respectful behavior toward your betrayed spouse," coupled with a commitment to at least END THE DIVORCE PLANS, is a pretty fair MINIMUM standard at this stage, don't you?
I think it'll be another 6-12 months before OIN gets his emotional needs met in any significant way from his wife, don't get me wrong. But it needs to START with the above, in my opinion, and I don't think it's unrealistic -- or unfair -- whatsoever.
What Sandi says is probably true. But, I note, you and your husband talked about it. There was discussion. He was not so frightened of you that he didn't bring it up. So, I say, "Good for him!" And whether you like it or not, you thought about it.
The problem here is no discussion. Avoidance of the issues. Problems do not solve themselves, and they don't just go away. This will fester under the rug until it destroys the marriage. Surely, OIN is not about to trust his wife anymore.
I wouldn't be looking for an apology, or more broadly even remorse or contrition. As the best infidelity research points out, more than half the time, this never comes.
I'd be looking instead for an overall commitment to the reconciliation process, for TRUE no-contact, and for respectful and courteous behavior from her (the "no worse than you would treat a stranger" standard mentioned above).
Puppy
Good stuff here... This nonsense of demanding apologies and such just isn't realistic, not to mention contrary to DB strategy guidelines...
I usually stick to MWD unless there's an affair happening... MWD is spot on unless there's infidelity at work, then I think a hardball approach is necessary...
For me an apology would be a complete recommittal to the marriage. It would show in everything that the WAW does, they would take it seriously and give respect and time.
It would be the same as if a good friend of yours got influenced and turned on you putting you in danger, in the end the friend knew they were wrong. If the friend wants to recommit to the friendship, it would show in transparency, his attitude and respect toward you. None of us want anyone to grovel.
Putting away the knives, implicitly declaring a "ceasefire" and trying to act like adults is the first few steps
Yes, courtesy, please, thank you, no name calling, trying to use language like an adult, DESPITE how you may FEEL.
A person can be furuious but still offer up a please and thank you... and over time it DOES sneak into the brain and warm the relationship...
I am onside with pupper here, end the divorce proceedings, act civil, etc... That's best after an affair has just ended or is fizzling out due to final showdown etc... Being wreckless and demanding apologies at this stage will just invite the war to start all over again...
I am not looking fro an apology but rather progress. I want to rebuild a relationship, a friendship with my W. I WANT TO BE THE NEW OM. Leave the old me for the new me.
I think we are at the point where we are establishing a respectful level of communication. Yes she still expresses resentment from the past at times but we exchange the "thank you" and "your welcome" and I feel it is progressing more just in the past few days.
The whole at the park, at the zoo, games here, bike ride there is all who we were before our sitch started. That is just us and is some instance what we wanted to be...
M: 27, W: 25 Together since: 01/31/00 M: 10/4/09 (8 Months) ILBNILWY: 01/24/10 EA confirmed: 02/10/10 (Busted). Road to Reconcile began: 07/10/10 Retrouvaille: 09/10/10
I'm not saying it's easy, Sandi -- in fact, I know from my wife's own experience that it's NOT -- but I do think that "courteous and respectful behavior toward your betrayed spouse," coupled with a commitment to at least END THE DIVORCE PLANS, is a pretty fair MINIMUM standard at this stage, don't you?
I think it'll be another 6-12 months before OIN gets his emotional needs met in any significant way from his wife, don't get me wrong. But it needs to START with the above, in my opinion, and I don't think it's unrealistic -- or unfair -- whatsoever.
Oh, absolutely. I was agreeing with what you said before. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I "do" believe that good behavior must be the first step b/c people "can" behave well....even if they don't have the right feelings yet. But as long as a couple shows disrespectful behavior, then only bad will come forth from that.
No, it is not easy for either person. I guess the message I try to get through to the LBH is that he wants her to change back to how it used to be....and do it right now (snap). She just can't, and if she did seem to change that quickly or easily, I would think something was still stinking (if you know what I mean) and she was simply putting on a show......not an effort.
Lotus, yes if there is no communication then there are serious, serious complications. That was the birth of my M problems....so I understand that completely. Even in trying to talk to work things out, there were few words spoken from my H...and I'm sure that is one reason it took a long time for me to get through some of my personal cr@p.....but maybe that's just "me" in my stitch. In other cases, the LBS may want to talk too much....IDK. But I agree that sweeping it under the rug never solves anything.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes, OIN and his wife should talk... But NOT YET.. IT's too soon...
And demanding an apology is NOT how to start that conversation...
Keep doin what you're doin OIN... avoid bad turns like the plague, that's more important than the good days is avoiding the bad.. you are checking yourself, that's good.. keep that up...
Give your wife a few weeks to process this work stuff... her Sup talk to her yet?
I would expect another blow up... don't get involved... Just be somewhere else if you can.
I agree with the way Allen has expressed his opinion of all of this. And this kind of sums up what I've tried to say:
Quote:
A person can be furuious but still offer up a please and thank you... and over time it DOES sneak into the brain and warm the relationship...
Exactly. Trying to live under the same roof while being respectul.
But, I don't agree with DLS about the way he sees it:
Quote:
For me an apology would be a complete recommittal to the marriage. It would show in everything that the WAW does, they would take it seriously and give respect and time.
Then you don't fully understand the deep stuff that the WAW is still going through. Sometimes she says to herself, "Today I decide to end it will OM", the the next day she might be strong enough to say, "Today I decide not to get a D", then the next day she makes another decision. She has a battle raging inside of her and she's trying to do the "right thing" even if her brain and her heart is screaming to do differently. Don't you think that deserves a little bit of credit? That is VERY hard to do when you are despartely unhappy. She is trying to grab ahold of something and pull herself up to where she can say, "Today I decide to live with my H".
But, when the LBH is not satisfied with that and he demands or sits back expecting an apology for her sins.......then that attitude comes across to the WAW loud & clear....and it can interfer with her feelings of remorse. Therefore, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Quote:
It would be the same as if a good friend of yours got influenced and turned on you putting you in danger, in the end the friend knew they were wrong. If the friend wants to recommit to the friendship, it would show in transparency, his attitude and respect toward you. None of us want anyone to grovel.
I don't agree. The intimate, complex relationship between a H & W cannot be compared to someone who is a friend. You don't live with a friend. You are not physically intimate nor share children (and a ton of other reasons). You can apologize easier to a friend than you can your own S in some cases. (However, if your WAW actually put your life in "danger"....then I could understand you expecting an apology for that!)
Ah, isn't it great that we can all share our thoughts?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'd be looking instead for an overall commitment to the reconciliation process, for TRUE no-contact, and for respectful and courteous behavior from her
To be honest, I did not realize just how important an apology from the WAW was until I began reading the post from LBH's. Sadly, I think that is almost the last stage for her.
You see, the WAW blames her H for much of the reason why she did what she did (turning to OM, etc.) so IMHO, she doesn't feel that he deserves an apology from her. Frankly, I was stunned and had some very ugly feelings toward my H when he told me that I had not even apologized to him. I looked over at him setting there and all I could see was a self-righteous do-gooder who had a lot of people fooled. I almost hated him. He never apologized to "me" for the years & years of emotional neglect (amoung a ton of other things) and never admitted he had done anything to contribute to the breakdown of our M.
I remember telling him that I was working to reach the point of being willing "to be willing" and for him not to push it. It was all I could do just to make the decision to drop the EA and no farther contact with OM. The grieving would last for months and my resentment toward my H would continue past the grieving. I had to turn lose of the past and the bitterness I had built. Nothing was going to change the past, but I had no energy to put forth in the MR. That is what my H wanted to see.....me putting a lot of "effort" into working on the M. I thought that was very ironic beings that I had always been the one putting forth that effort.
The "respectful and courteous behavior" is really a milestone for some WAW's and not to be discredited.
The only reason I relate back to my personal stitch is that I wondered if it would help you relate. WAW's have so much in common. I do not condone a WAW in an A, but I understand.
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
