The U-haul has come and I should go

[Dagny]

Thank you all for your support and wise words.

Pam, I think you have a point there, that by not confronting the problem (me) my ILs can stick their heads in the sand and pretend this isn't all happening. Just do the big mental erase of me.

Dotto, in an odd way, it is nice to hear that someone else has gone through this, it is their loss. My boss called them emotionally un-courageous. She thinks I should extend the olive branch for the sake of my sons and to also be the first one to do something mature in the relationship. I'm thinking about that one. I am much too angry and sarcastic at the moment, but thinking of doing it via email. Will run it by here first, as I don't want sarcasm to get the best of me. Going to start and try some arranging with H to get away for the Boston weekend.

Water--lets keep reminding ourselves of actions speak volumes. I think this goes with what Sue is saying, we choose how to respond to this and what we will do. it is up to us to pick the reactions and the next steps we take. We are worth it and if they are too dumb to figure it out, well, we will survive and thrive, but will they?

Opt, thanks for hugs, always needed.

Mockers, you are wonderful. Thank you for that list. It looks fairly impressive, I can't believe it is me! The small things add up.

I am working on my goals and working at letting my anger at ILs go. The boys go to H's house for first overnight tomorrow night, they can't wait. Jumping for joy at the prospect. Breaks my heart, but not letting it show.

After a two month hiatus, I returned to karate class tonight. I can be eligible to test for my next belt in three weeks, but I need to get on the ball and re-learn what I have forgotten. Gives me a goal. I hurt everywhere, in two months I undid 10 months of work. But, not more hiding under the covers, time to reclaim life.

Jackie

[psluke]

Yeah Jackie,

You are sounding much more determined and moving now, making some plans for Jackie. Good for you!

The anger is hard to deal with, I think it slowly works through you, mine is much better now. Occassionally I still find it there but not like it was in the beginning.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jackie}}}}}}}}}}}}

[mockers2]

You sound good today, Jackie.

Give the anger time, just like everything else. Mine seems to come in waves. When it comes up, feel it, then breathe and keep going. Seems like karate would be good for some release.

(((((Jackie))))))

Do something special for you every day.

[MAL]

Mockers, you are wonderful. Thank you for that list. It looks fairly impressive, I can't believe it is me! The small things add up.

Yes Jackie. That is you! So get used to it!



It all keeps getting easier I promise you.

I know you read my thread, so you know that my IL's have no contact with me. I honestly feel sorry for them, because they are missing out on some great parts of life, expecially the kids. They do see S9 sometimes, but not often, and they never see S17. Isn't it sad?

The anger and the pain have no benefit to you. In fact, they eat you up inside. Just let them go the best you can. You're doing great!

I agree that the Karate sounds like a great release. Doing things for you! Yes!!

[mockers2]

Thinking of you today, Jackie.

[optimist]

Good morning, Jackie!

I like the idea of karate: you can sublimate your instincts... and release some of the tension. You may also want to try a good long Swedish massage for those aching muscles...

Hold on, girl. One day at a time!

Big hugs.

[Dagny]

Mal, Mockers, Pam & Opt--thanks for checking in. It feels good to be back at karate, though I have tons of work to do if I want to be ready to test in only three weeks! Yikes.

Officially this is all heresay, but my mother and H had lunch on Friday, though H did not want to do it, after a week of coaching mom and making her read DR, I think she was up for it and could do it without being antagonizing and from her recount of events, it seems like she succeeded. She said her tongue hurt at the end because of all the comments she bit back. So, you can teach an old dog a new trick (I'd be dead if she read that!)

What H said during conversation which we some of the problems and why he left (I wonder if he has this canned speech he gives everyone)

* He wants more time to bond with kids, didn't get enough because when he came home there is always so much that needs to be done in terms of care and upkeep of the house. This way he does his chores when he doesn't have the kids and can spend time with them when he does. He expects I will do the same.

* He is upset that I didn't wear my engagement ring after I got pregnant with S7. I got too fat and the ring never fit. I always hoped to lose the weight and wear again. Finally 9/02 we buy a gorgeous anniversary ring on wonderful day in Philly, two months pre-bomb. I had previosly stated I would just buy a wedding band, but he didn't feel that was good enough as it wasn't blessed by priest. I'm leaving all my sarcastic comments out, but I'm thinking if this is so important to him, I should make sure I don't take my anniversary band off during this time as it would be a huge signal to him, or should I and make him wonder? This is a man who can hold a grudge.

* We lived apart for 3 years while married, this is now bothering him. History: in 1990 we both quit our jobs so H could return to grad school. During his schooling I decide to get a second BS in teaching. H had to move 3 hours away for new job, I had to stay to student teach. I then decide to pursue my MS which kept me there for 2 more years. I always thought he loved the arrangement, he was working mega hours and we almost always saw each other on weekends and we got PSU tickets. I don't know if this has truly bothered him for so many years or if he is using it as a rationalization for what he is now doing. In 1995 he moved to Iowa and I finished up my course work and joined him as we were now too far to commute.

* The 3 years we spent apart were for naught as my BS and MS degrees are sitting at the bottom of the cedar chest while I am a stay-at-home mom.

In some ways I feel like I'm doing pennance for these past transgressions, but the severity of his feelings about this I was completely out of touch with. He also brought up that we currently have no couple time together, but that one seems easy to fix, it is the past that has me befuddled. What can I do about that? It is over, I can only apologize so much for not realizing it meant so much to him. It came up once in therapy in 12/02 and I did apologize, but do I keep doing so? Write him a letter. In some ways it seems like we have a lot of forgiving that we both have to do--him for my pursuing degrees I don't use and getting fat and not resizing my ring, and me for his actions and neglect the last 16 months. Wow, how did we ever get here?

Jackie

{{{{{{{{{Jackie}}}}}}}}

The things your H is saying are alien speak! He is rationalizing to the world why he left. He has to say something - and he is choosing his reasons to reflect favorably on him - or so he thinks anyway! But DB'ing is all about validating the things that WAS say while making them feel secure enough to come back - so here it goes...

Care and upkeep of the house being too time consuming. The X and I had that problem too since we both worked and it can be very stressful. I can imagine it was the same for the two of you with his long work hours and you raising the kids.

Comment to H: Yes, the care and the upkeep of the house was very time consuming. You would like to work with him to come up with a solution. Perhaps hiring a maid to come in once a week or every two weeks. Perhaps hiring someone to mow the lawn in the summers. (It is cheaper to hire people to do the work than to maintain two separate residences!)

Engagement ring - can you get it re-sized and just wear it now? It seems to be very important to him.

The three years apart must have been tough for both of you. You both had to sacrifice. Maybe he is resentful of the sacrifice he made at the time.

Comment to H: I am sorry, I did not realize how difficult those three years apart were for you. How can I make it up to you?

Couple time together. I know many of my male friends ran into marital problems when they had kids - especially when the second one came along. The men seemed to feel left out b/c their W's become so busy with the kids. I know they just don't seem to get how much work it is for the W. After their long hours at work - they seem to expect their W's to be there for them when they get home. They miss their W's and the alone time they use to have together. The new kid centered life seems to be a tough adjustment. The lack of understanding makes no sense to me - but that is one the big things my male co-workers use to complain about.

So it is possible your H has felt neglected since you guys had kids. I am not sure how to address this w/o pursuing behavior. I guess, it your H opens the door for discussion, maybe you need to set up a date night a week and perhaps a weekend getaway just for the two of you every two months.

I am not sure how you should communicate these things to him... It seems like he must have known telling your mother these things meant that it would get back to you. It could be he is trying to communicate with you indirectly... The other experts on the BB may be able to guide you better...

Buy a big six pack of duct tape and keep it close by at all times. Hang in there. His reasons for leaving seem to be based on hurt feelings and maybe fixable - but sometimes WAS change the reasons for leaving once the original reasons are no longer valid....

BTW: In my book, education is never a waste. The years you spent at college helped you become the person that you are today. If at some point in your life you choose to go back to work - those degrees are going to open doors for you and give you an edge over other applicants!

Take care of yourself and maintain your PMA - DB'ing is a test in endurance. {{{{{{{Jackie}}}}}}}

take care,
Manisha

[love_endures4ever]

Hi Jackie,

it is the past that has me befuddled. What can I do about that? It is over, I can only apologize so much for not realizing it meant so much to him.

H has to work through all of this on his own. You've apologized enough. I'm saying this because there were issues in our marriage that I was mad at H about, but I really thought about them and I realized that I was mad because H hadn't responded the way I WANTED H to, H responded to them the way that H WANTED to, MY expectations didn't match H's. So many thing about my past have made me resentful and angry, but I've managed to address those issues and have not let them go. You are right, you cannot change the past, H has to forgive and let some of the things in the past go and move on at some point or it can swallow a person up and make them angry and bitter.

The men seemed to feel left out b/c their W's become so busy with the kids. I know they just don't seem to get how much work it is for the W. After their long hours at work - they seem to expect their W's to be there for them when they get home. They miss their W's and the alone time they use to have together. The new kid centered life seems to be a tough adjustment. The lack of understanding makes no sense to me - but that is one the big things my male co-workers use to complain about.

So it is possible your H has felt neglected since you guys had kids. I am not sure how to address this w/o pursuing behavior. I guess, it your H opens the door for discussion, maybe you need to set up a date night a week and perhaps a weekend getaway just for the two of you every two months.

I remember not too long after we had our baby, H came home from work one night and I was sitting on the couch with our baby (probably was getting two to three hours of sleep at the most) and H said to me "what did you do all day!? I think H thought that since I was home all day I'd have dinner waiting for him besides everything else I had done all day."

I KNOW my H felt this way and I did put all of my time into our son, son needed me, but so did H. I was either too tired, didn't want to go out and leave son alone, couldn't do this or do that, BUT they were all EXCUSES. I didn't want to put any effort into my H, H was at the bottom of my list. It was actually at the point that my H started going out a lot and met OW, that I finally felt I was able to start giving my H more attention and doing more things with H, but it was too late.

but sometimes WAS change the reasons for leaving once the original reasons are no longer valid....

I agree with this, as each time I did something that H had complained I didn't do, H would find another reason why he wasn't happy. I figured this out a few months ago and so when I make a change I do it for myself, not because it was something my H didn't like that I didn't do for H. My H went through every reason at least once and then started over again!!

I think you're doing great Jackie!!!

Cathy

[totite]

Hi Jackie. Wow! As I read the two posts by Manisha and Cathy, I felt like they were in my house. Much of what you are feeling, I felt a few short months ago.

I need to echo a few of the sentiments expressed:

1. Keeping up a house when you are working outside the home is tough, and it doesn't get any easier when you are staying at home. My job was eliminated 18 months ago so I stayed home, but kept the kids in childcare two days a week so I could try my hand at consulting. Here is where the different expectations entered in - my H harbored anger at the fact that we were paying for child care and I wasn't "working". Last year I collected unemployment. I did one project earlier this year, collect UE on an extenstion and right now I am doing two projects. This year I will bring in about half of my annual salary in a fraction of the time! Being at home doesn't make my house cleaner, I have one child all day, two half the day and three after school! I find that I get most of my stuff done when they are with my H.

2. My H doesn't wear his ring. He took it off several years ago when helping a friend build his house and never put it back on. It still hurts me and should he return, it is one of those things I'd like to address with him. I have mentioned it but it appears to fall on deaf ears. So I can relate to your H on that one. Get it resized, put it on and let him notice it. Bet that actions speaks much louder than words to him!

3. Couple time - the toughest of them all. This is where Cathy's words hit home. Working full time, raising three kids, etc., put H at the bottom of the "who needs me" list. Believe me, it won't happen again. We started having alone time at the beginning of October - after the kids are in bed he comes over. He'll see that I am tired and say "just go to bed" and I refuse and say the time with him is worth missing some sleep. Big 180 here. The kids don't know he is here because we don't want to confuse them. So we have two parallel relationships for now - but the alone time is wonderful! Maybe it would work for you as well as time goes on...

4. Be thankful you have your education and your Masters degree. Should you enter the job market, it will open the door, and your personality will get you the offer. I had a recent job offer that was in a different field from my Masters, but I know it got me the interview. Should you never use it working outside the home, I bet you use the skills acquired as you run your household and function within your community.

5. Cathy's words about differing expectations really struck me. I know that I had this ideal of what our family should be like and how my H should fit in. Reality is that his actions didn't meet my expectations - did I resent it - yes. Should I have - no, I should have talked and clarified our differences. It was foreign to have differences because in all other aspects of our relationship, we are so similar. However, our childhoods were different. I had a father that was present in my life - he didn't. That in itself is huge after all. I never thought it would be and that is why I am so determined to work our M out - so my kids can have both parents present in their day-to-day lives. It is ironic that since he left he has spent more time with the kids than ever before, because now they miss him more in between visits.

Sorry if it seemed like I hijacked this - that wasn't the intent. It was to let you see another perspective and know that you are not alone in your feelings.

Lastly, enjoy the time alone. It is so hard at first when kids are away, but in time (and not that much time) you will love the time alone. Now when my H comes home I will have to negotiate to keep some time for me alone.

(((Hang in there!))) You can do this. Be patient and strong and take care of you.