Ok.. good. Again.. no forward movement on this. Basically stall if you have to. You are telling me this is not what you want. So.. don't do it.
"infidelity is not negotiable."
I got it.
"i hold back on things because i fear my h lurking. i think he is aware of this site and my concern is that he is trying to thwart my db-ing efforts."
I am always on the fence with this. Really the biggest issue to me is that if the S does read something here.. it could get taken out of context. Most likely because they would not read all of it.. and would just pick out the bad stuff. The act of "snooping" on you clearly defines that he still cares. Even if they are looking for ammo on you.. it shows they are not "done". They are looking for something to help them control the situation. I don't think you have to worry much about him thwarting your DB'ing efforts.. cause to be honest so far they have not been all that great.
"no. these concepts were really to save the LBS from the grip of depression."
You have to put this into context though. Most people find DB.com when it is too late. They have created such a hole.. it is hard to get out. The people that do "win" typically move on. They move on because they don't want to dwell in "this" stuff. They leave behind the "legacy" in the words they write. So.. to put it simply.. you have tons of "New" people that are in the exact same place as you.. trying to help you. Things can get.. well screwy. My goal when I decided to keep posting here was to help 1%. So.. if I talk to 100 people..1 of them might get it.
Don't let your mind.. be your worst enemy. Cause it will!
"i feel hopeful one day and then i read a thread about how they've tried and is still headed for d. and i wonder whether i am just fooling myself."
Start at the bottom of that list the 1-23 link.. that should keep you busy for a while. She is "winning" but.. I bet some days she wishes she wasn't.
"i won't deny that. my ic told me that it can only be saved if the two of you want to save it. it can't be saved when one of you wants to save it. but a d can happen if only one of you wants it. i don't have a say in it."
Eh.. kinda. At some point.. yes both of you will have to be on board. I do think one person can direct where you both go though.
"i don't want my db effort to be about me. it's about my m - how to get it back."
See.. you don't understand that you have lost YOURSELF.. and your marriage. They are intertwined. I would bet a million dollars that the person sitting on the other side of this screen right now.. is not the real you. How can you change things.. when the real you.. is buried under all this "Emotion"? It happens to us all.. and I cannot say it more clearly.. the faster you stop that.. and get your head back on right.. the better the chance of winning. I need the real you.. to shine! I need you to make smart decisions.. not "Emotional" ones.
"have been honest so far. i think i revealed more in your replies than i have elsewhere. i couldn't post this on the newcomers forum. i have read the posts there and i swear, if bummedout starts replying to my thread, i'll end the thread."
Look.. if you need someone to step away from your thread just say it. Me included. Just say the words.. and don't be afraid of it. If they don't listen.. let me know.. I have not exercised my "Drama Queen" in a while now.
"the terms are being reviewed by both sides. i expect it to be done by the end of the month."
Keep me updated.
"my job is to know my h."
Throw out.. everything you "know". We start fresh.. we test the situation if we are unsure. Start with the basics.
"we wanted to start a family. h was sympathetic when we failed every month. but when he dropped the d-bomb, he said he wasn't sure if he wanted to have kids. he felt he was too old for kids. and he was tired of putting up with my crying every month when we failed to get pregnant."
So.. what was he really saying here? Most likely he did not understand the depth of importance to you. You can be nice to someone for a while. After it keeps happening.. it gets harder to be nice. You think that people should know.. you want to be nice.. and that you were once or twice. This is a clear idea of how we need to be more clear with the things we say and do. To a man.. his job is to "fix" your crying. If he is not successful he will distance himself. Most likely because he does not understand and he gets frustrated. Frustration.. leads to anger.. and off we go. You have to be on the look out for when you become "overwhelming". That is where you change it. DB will teach you to break down every interaction.. and after a while it becomes habit.. or something you do naturally.
This guy talk's about the point where you become "overbearing" and how to react when you notice it.
"i didn't do that on purpose. you told me to speak in terms of "we" so i did. and those were the things that came to mind. what does that tell you?"
That sub-consciously.. you know why you are "here". People say the damndest things.. when they don't know what to say. Also.. you proved the point that people show you how to "love" them.. even without them thinking about it. If you can create situations where people don't know what to say.. or how to react.. you can "see" their true colors. I can "see" the havoc that this situation created.
"and i will try to to appear happier next time i see him."
This is the goal. At some point.. you are gonna have to get lucky.. or create a situation where you see him. The goal of this meeting will be for you to make a statement. I don't want to generate a response from him.. but you need to say some things.
#1.. This is not what you want. You don't want to be D.
#2.. You appreciate all the "things" he has showed you.
you need to capture this thought in your words.
"in all honesty, i learned to live a better life when he came into my world. he showed me how to live well. for that, i am truly grateful."
#3.. You want to be happy.. and right now you feel that means having him in your life.
I am not great at fleshing out statements.. I am a seat of the pants guy. But.. you have a great forum of wonderful writers here. Maybe they can help. You need to frame your words with "I"
I feel this way I miss this
so on and so on. No "you" (meaning him).. use "we" cautiously.
The key to this is you will have to set aside all "Emotion" when you do this. It must be a statement. You will need to smile.. and appear to mean your words. Anyone who "sees" this interaction will have no doubt that it is sincere. If you can't pull that off.. don't do it. It is hundreds of times more important how you say it.. then what you say. Ideally you pull it off flawlessly.
"this one is tough. will require some creativity and thought."
That is the goal.. that is what you need. You don't want to run into this.. with your head down. We know what that gets you!
Keep your head up.. (so you can see whats coming)
And always... (You can click on the red words below.. they are defined)
Relax Eat Think Act normal React.. Smartly. Do something different. Emulate. Do Work.
I think your friend got it right--I think turning around that statement to "I don't think I'm ready for fatherhood" is what he was really saying.
He went through some heavy duty guy emotions--working extra hours at a job he hates, etc. Many people approach parenthood with ambivolence. Men especially.
Well, that is the past and winning back your H is the thing to focus on now. The statements are very, very important. The intent behind them must be felt. If it is true, he can tell.
i don't get it. if he's the one who's not sure if he's ready for fatherhood, why didn't he just say it? why did he have to say that i wasn't ready or that he didn't think i could handle it? if he wasn't sure of himself, he should have said it was him and not pin it on me.
i don't sit around thinking hmm .. did he mean this or that? i take whatever he says at face value. don't play mind games with me. this isn't high school.
i forgot to mention .. if co-dependents are really in tune with people's feelings, then why did he not get it when i told him that his words about my ability to handle motherhood, hurt me? i didn't circle around the issue. i flat out said that it hurt me.
there will be more details coming. i just know it because you guys are gaining my trust.
if he's the one who's not sure if he's ready for fatherhood, why didn't he just say it? why did he have to say that i wasn't ready or that he didn't think i could handle it? if he wasn't sure of himself, he should have said it was him and not pin it on me.
Because it would let you down if he said he wasn't ready. Hurting people say hurtful things.
Whose the real procrastinator in the R? Why would he procrastinate?
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
even with the d. he said "oh i can see the gears turning in your head. you just want to win." excuse me? i didn't know we were playing a game. this is a divorce!
Quote:
Because it would let you down if he said he wasn't ready. Hurting people say hurtful things.
coach, i'm not directing this at you or anything but i want you to know that i'm envisioning my h saying this as a reason for his behaviour and this is how i would respond to my h if he gave me such answers. just to give you an idea how i fight back.
how do you know it would let me down? again, pinning this on me when you don't know that this is going to be my reaction. you are assuming i would react that way. it's like saying i think you're going to cheat on me so we might as well divorce now. nobody has cheated on anybody but you're making this crap up to justify your actions.
hurting people say hurtful things? i was really hurt when you said you didn't think i could handle motherhood. and when your parents felt hurt by my demeanor, you only saw their hurt. you saw my "hurtful" behaviour as me being mean - and not because i was hurt. you still won't acknowledge that i was hurt by your words. you don't think i'm hurt at all by this whole fiasco that YOU asked for. when you hurl hurtful words at me, i have to acknowledge that you're hurting? pleez. it's like you're saying it's a valid it excuse when it comes to YOUR feelings. but it's not a valid excuse to justify my feelings.
that's right. i don't matter in our relationship. it was always you and your parents. those were the only people who mattered. what was i? the housekeeper/booty call/executive assistant? you are friggin' lucky i am not taking you for all your worth. i'm not about material things. the only thing of value in our home was our m/my h. i would fight for that but i wouldn't fight for the furniture. they mean nothing to me.
you thought i was going to be like estelle (background info: estelle was vindictive in her d. she took for the sake of taking and out of spite.) and in the end, you became estelle. you took for the sake of taking. splitting the salt and pepper shakers, splitting up the bed sheet set. it was just plain petty. you did it because you thought i was going to be that. i didn't even go there. i wasn't the vindictive person you painted me to be. i watched you become this completely different person consumed by greed. your family wanted me to pay them back for their contribution to our wedding. ain't it funny how you called me a gold digger?
your father squandered your money on bad investments and left you in the hole. i helped you minimize your losses. before you met me, you were in debt. after we got married, we were debt free. but i'm the gold digger, right?
to say i'm hurt is an understatement. but this isn't about me being hurt. all along my feelings didn't matter. it didn't matter how hurt i was. it was about me being so mean and hurtful that you couldn't stand to be with me anymore. that i was the source of all the negativity in your life. (and coach, what did you say was feeding all that negative emotion? the co-dependency with his parents?)
<end rant> coach, i'm sorry i got off on a tangent. the reason why the weight keeps coming off is because this eats away at me every single day. i have never said any of this to h. there was never the right time or place to say it. i don't even know if what i'm saying is clear or will get through to him.
i could have become the vindictive LBS/dumpee but i didn't. this same strength that prevented me from crossing that line, kept me from being mean to my inlaws. people say nasty things to their inlaws but i don't. i didn't get snarky with them. there was still a level of respect that i displayed - that's the Good Girl i always was and still am.
this divorce wasn't going to turn me into a nasty person. i am determined to stay true to myself. i don't want to look back and say "what was i thinking? man, i was stupid to fight for this or i regret saying that." i want to look back and say that i kept my composure when faced with adversity.
i don't think i'm "holy-er than thou". but i want to be the best person i can be at all times. even when i've fallen down, with both knees and ankles broken, and struggling to stand up again. i want God to look at me and be proud of who i am because i matter to Him.
Whose the real procrastinator in the R? Why would he procrastinate?
i'm going to say we both are but i would say h moreso than me. everyone procrastinates to some degree. but h tends to leave things to the point where i go "fine, i'll do it". he procrastinates because he doesn't like to do it. like folding the laundry. slowest laundry folder in the world. to the point where i go, let me do it. you're too slow at this.
Also, have you ever told his parents that this D is not something you want?
I could be wrong, but you seemed so passive when the D was asked for--maybe you felt ambivolent at the time--but perhaps they took it as you not really caring about their son that you went along with it all so easily.
If my H is ever serious about a D, my in-laws will be told that my stance is that I DO NOT want this! Well, unless I have been DBing forever and I do.
I don't think you have to worry much about him thwarting your DB'ing efforts.. cause to be honest so far they have not been all that great.
ok. i'll trust you on this one. if you read my other posts, you can see that i'm starting to open up more about my sitch.
Quote:
Most people find DB.com when it is too late. They have created such a hole.. it is hard to get out.
did i find db.com too late?
Quote:
My goal when I decided to keep posting here was to help 1%. So.. if I talk to 100 people..1 of them might get it.
i'm grateful you have stayed with my thread. i want to stop feeling hurt. i want to stop making decisions based on feeling.
Quote:
Eh.. kinda. At some point.. yes both of you will have to be on board. I do think one person can direct where you both go though.
i'm going to trust you on this one too.
Quote:
See.. you don't understand that you have lost YOURSELF.. and your marriage. They are intertwined. I would bet a million dollars that the person sitting on the other side of this screen right now.. is not the real you. How can you change things.. when the real you.. is buried under all this "Emotion"? It happens to us all.. and I cannot say it more clearly.. the faster you stop that.. and get your head back on right.. the better the chance of winning. I need the real you.. to shine! I need you to make smart decisions.. not "Emotional" ones.
how do i get myself out of this emotional fog? i'm going to have to start practicing on people before trying it out on h.
i've been trying to keep a happy persona. and i think i unwittingly lead people on. someone struck up a conversation in the elevator one morning and the conversation ended with the man saying "we should go for a drink some time." .. i kinda half smiled. i still wear my wedding ring but i don't think he saw it.
yesterday i came home from squash and a guy got in the elevator, saw my racquet bag and asked if i played squash. apparently he did too and he wanted to get back into it. i asked if he was any good and if so, he should drop by our club. now, i wasn't trying to pick this guy up or anything but it ended in a handshake and a confirmation on each other's name.
i guess in the two cases described above, it was effortless. i was being the Good Girl. i'm not interested so .... i didn't make my decisions based on emotion?! is that what you mean?
Quote:
Look.. if you need someone to step away from your thread just say it. Me included. Just say the words.. and don't be afraid of it. If they don't listen.. let me know.. I have not exercised my "Drama Queen" in a while now.
no no. i just noticed how bummedout has been jumping from thread to thread, and i really don't need his two cents to derail my thread or drive my advisors away. that would be the reason why i would abandon this thread. if i felt my thread was being hijacked or sabotaged, then i would abandon ship. there is no need for that.
Quote:
So.. what was he really saying here? Most likely he did not understand the depth of importance to you. You can be nice to someone for a while. After it keeps happening.. it gets harder to be nice. You think that people should know.. you want to be nice.. and that you were once or twice. This is a clear idea of how we need to be more clear with the things we say and do. To a man.. his job is to "fix" your crying. If he is not successful he will distance himself. Most likely because he does not understand and he gets frustrated. Frustration.. leads to anger.. and off we go. You have to be on the look out for when you become "overwhelming". That is where you change it. DB will teach you to break down every interaction.. and after a while it becomes habit.. or something you do naturally.
in my later posts, i reveal that when h dropped the d-bomb, he had said he wasn't sure if he wanted kids. he felt it was a difference of ours. i said kids was negotiable. i actually wasn't sure if i really wanted them. yeah, it would be nice to have them but i also had a lot of fears when it came to having children. but he said he felt i would resent him if we didn't have them. again, trying to put words in my mouth when he didn't ask how i felt about not having kids. his mom really wanted grandkids. i wasn't pressured by her but i would have loved to give her grandkids.
while we're on this topic. bring out your 2x4. during our m, i made a hurtful comment once about our fertility issue. i was adamant that the problem wasn't with me. and i said y'know sometimes i want to do it with another man just to see if the problem is with you (h). that was probably the most hurtful thing i ever said to h. he was truly hurt by that. because it touched on infidelity (which like me - is not negotiable for him) and implying that he was inadequate. you can hit me with the 2x4 now.
Quote:
This is the goal. At some point.. you are gonna have to get lucky.. or create a situation where you see him. The goal of this meeting will be for you to make a statement. I don't want to generate a response from him.. but you need to say some things.
my anniversary is in june. should i write it in a card? we've always expressed ourselves in writing. every year i get 2-3 card from him telling me how much he loved me and despite our differences, there was nobody he rather be with.
on a side note. you know how you said not to let my mind be my worst enemy? well .. my mind tells me that i should be getting a dear john letter from h. telling me how he is no longer in love with me due to our differences.
when he moved out, i turned the house upside down looking for this letter. i expected him to leave it somewhere for me to find when i got home. i've never found such a letter. but for some reason, i think it's coming and the thought of it makes my heart race in a bad way. he no longer loves me.
Quote:
Anyone who "sees" this interaction will have no doubt that it is sincere. If you can't pull that off.. don't do it. It is hundreds of times more important how you say it.. then what you say. Ideally you pull it off flawlessly.
i will need to practice this before i actually try it out on h. how will i know when i'm making a decision based on thought rather than emotion? can you give me an example?
i will continue to post. it's therapeutic for me. when i post, i reveal things like how i normally fight. it might give you some insight on how i need to be reigned in or what kind of advice will or will not work with me.
That is honestly a hard question to answer. Without having a solid interaction with your H it his hard for me to read. All I can say is I have "seen" people in worse places. You have a few things against you. At the worst.. you got a 50/50 shot. Just like everybody else here.
"i guess in the two cases described above, it was effortless. i was being the Good Girl. i'm not interested so .... i didn't make my decisions based on emotion?! is that what you mean?"
Yes.. this is exactly what I am talking about. When I was practicing.. I called them my "unsuspecting public". This is what you will need to mimic when you make your statement.
"how do i get myself out of this emotional fog? i'm going to have to start practicing on people before trying it out on h."
It is different for everyone. GAL, LRT, Going Dark, etc.. are all ways to help you find something that works. Posting can help. Basically you try things till you find something. Mine was hitting softball's at the batting cage... and reading posts.
"there is no need for that."
Well damn! It can be so much fun for me.
"in my later posts, i reveal that when h dropped the d-bomb, he had said he wasn't sure if he wanted kids. he felt it was a difference of ours. i said kids was negotiable. i actually wasn't sure if i really wanted them. yeah, it would be nice to have them but i also had a lot of fears when it came to having children. but he said he felt i would resent him if we didn't have them. again, trying to put words in my mouth when he didn't ask how i felt about not having kids. his mom really wanted grandkids. i wasn't pressured by her but i would have loved to give her grandkids."
Knowing your history and every little detail.. for me is not that important. Sometimes I think it makes you focus too much on why you are "here". If you wanna hash it out.. please do. Coach is reading and Laura is too. I read it but.. unless something sticks out.. I won't say much. I am going to be more effective at directing you as you step into some "drama".
"while we're on this topic. bring out your 2x4."
You have not done anything to me to deserve them yet. You said mean things.. so what. Plus you got your 2x4 already.. he left. It was effective.. you are paying attention now.
"my anniversary is in june. should i write it in a card?"
Dunno.. we will see where we are in about 2-3 weeks.
I am headed to work.. and I have some things going on today (my grandmother was taken to the hospital) so I am not sure when I will be back. It may be late tonight before I get back to you.
Relax Eat Think Act normal React.. Smartly. Do something different. Emulate. Do Work.
