WAH and LBW separated and dark

[LauraOh]

Forest, if there is only "1 LL" for the guys...

Would anyone here think it was anything OTHER than the obvious??

[LauraOh]

here i thought h did so much damage to our r.
i have equally done as much damage to our r.

i do have much to think about. now what?

This WAS a pivitol moment for me in my sitch. I know you can't go on "just the LLs", because there is MUCH more involved.

But if you can see you share responsibility in one area, you may be willing to look in others and examine those as well.

Be strong and hold the mirror up. Yes, it is ugly. But it is also very, very important. It will inspire your actions.

[Forrest Gump]

"Forrest, if there is only "1 LL" for the guys...

Would anyone here think it was anything OTHER than the obvious??"

Well.. if the shoe fits.

Men are typically 1 of the 5 possibility's. Women are much more likely to "blend" them.

I was fairly sure that Mr. Chapman had said that himself.

I have been wrong once or twice before.

GG I saw your post.. just got slack on time at work. I will catch up with you tonight.

So funny to call you GG.. that is what my kids call their Great Grandma's. So you went from a sexually over-toned name.. to an Old Lady.

[theGoodGirl]

didn't get a chance to reply to this note. boy, are these posts getting long.

This is a good step. Just don't go overboard with it. Concentrate on understanding you.. and what is important to you. Leave the mind reading and guessing until later down the road. Can't stress this enough.

yeah, mind reading is bad. it causes panic attacks in me.

In your mind.. asking for that card you really wanted.. took a little bit away from the "gift". In his mind.. he was going with what had worked. Think back to how you reacted when you were dating to the nice gift he got you. How did you react differently years down the road?

i always smiled and thought the gifts were thoughtful. the gifts i liked the most, involved getting away and spending time together. often spending time together lead to other things.

i hope h is not lurking. but i remember being disappointed once when he got me diamond earrings. that really hurt him. i got my ears pierced just for him. and he wanted to reward me with diamond earrings. i wanted the engagement ring. not because of the ring, but because he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me.

now that the d-bomb has been dropped. he wants all of that stuff back. the ring, the earrings. and that hurts.

You will be surprised at what a WAS can "see". The bad stuff they can really "see".. cause it is what they are looking for.

This is why it is important to break away from the mold they have of you. Smiling goes a long way to helping that.. even if it is fake at first.

when his mom was here, i happily at the crap she fed me.
i didn't talk back. i didn't roll my eyes. i just sighed and went about my business. did i set boundaries? no. if i had set boundaries at that time, it would have been viewed as an attack on his mom. and that was one of the reasons why he felt i was no longer the same person he had married. the old GG wouldn't have behaved that way towards his parents.

But.. do you really think that this is a malicious attack on you.. and who you are? Do you really think your H woke up one morning and said you know what.. she has made my life hel1.. now I am gonna return the favor?

honestly. yeah, i do think he woke up and decided to return the favor. it's like he thinks i hurt his mom's feelings so he's defending their honor and seeking revenge for allegedly ruining christmas for them. has he ever thought that maybe they were exaggerating things? he should be aware of the fact that it's a trait that runs in the family.

i'm sure he's acting on emotions but so what? the emotions are from christmas. a week later, he drops the d-bomb and starts nickel and diming me on everything because he wants to control the d-process so it all works out in his favor. this way his parents will be proud of him for walking away with everything and leaving me destitute? this is what his emotions have lead him to do and that's how he wants to exact revenge on me because i ruined christmas for his parents? even if i had a snide look on my face, something had to have provoked it. so it's a two way street.

Or you change yourself and understand that this is not an "attack".. but the result of lots of "Emotion". Maybe you save the M.. maybe you don't. The turn around to get you started is to get your mind straight. Stop acting out.. and use your mind. Start small.. build on that.

despite the anger in me, i would still like to save our r.
there was a lot of good in the r. and i can't erase that.

GG

[LauraOh]

Forest, this is the result page for the men's online test at

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/assessments/


"The highest score indicates your primary love language (the highest score is 12). It’s not uncommon to have two high scores, although one language does have a slight edge for most people. That just means two languages are important to you.

The lower scores indicate those languages you seldom use to communicate love and which probably don’t affect you very much on an emotional level. Click Next to learn more about your primary love language and how to put it to use.
Next Previous "

[LauraOh]

Goodgirl, you sound as if you want to at least try to win back your H.

There was a lot of stuff my H did in his anger. His parents called me a "moneygrubber".lol. That was SO unfair (gifts REALLY mean nothing to me.lol. Dead last on those tests).

Yes, I *could* have dwelled on that. But I tried to see the "bigger picture".

My H is a basically decent person. My H and I had a pretty good marriage. My H has good qualities that I respect. His parents see him as their "little boy". I have a son, I could totally see myself doing that too. They only knew one side of the story.

When he said he wanted those earings/ring back, I think it was a test--if they mean nothing, you'll give them back. I wouldn't do it. (but I am NOT a gift person--would someone who knows "that language" agree?)

I an *not* sure how to help you here, because I barely know what sorts of interactions you guys have. Post how/when you see each other and give lots of details. When will you be seeing or talking or texting or ?? him next?

Work on being confident, positive, do some sort of 180 to make him curious about you...something. A cute new outfit? A sexy cute summer haircut?

And somehow, you have to speak his gift LL. I am not sure how to do it but really, really think about this one.

[Forrest Gump]

"the only implicit boundaries i've set are that when you ask for a divorce, we can't be friends."

So.. then why are you here? He has asked for a D.. you have signed the papers.. and it is just a matter of time.

"i couldn't be with someone after their manhood has been in someone else's yoohoo.
the good girl only buys brand new - never used. that is not negotiable."

Is this not negotiable.. like the "asking for D" statement?

"forrest, you gotta stop speaking in code. smile the "work" behind that thought?"

I don't know.. my code seems much more clear to me.. than what you say sometimes.

Plus it has a proven track record. What my "code" proved.. is very likely up in the air.

Here.. let me help you some.

When I use the "" marks.. I don't want you to think of the true definition of that word. I want you to apply it to your stitch. Blame my long term stay here at DB.com for it being hard to follow. I expect you to understand some things. I think that simply because you were smart enough to find this place. You understood that it could very likely help you. I expect that you have done your homework.

So..

"forrest, you gotta stop speaking in code. smile the "work" behind that thought?"

From my point of view.. you walked into this whole D thing with your head down.. and having no clear understanding of where you were going.

You have said.. that if it came to D.. you were done. He was out of your life.. and you would live happily ever after.. alone.

But.. "here" you are. Back-tracking. By posting you said.. "Help me save my marriage". Not only that.. you raised your hand and said I really need help.

The OW thing is a possibility. I am asking the question to set a frame of where you will be if/when "something" happens. I am testing you.. if you wanna say it that way.

The best thing you can do is give me honest answers. I will return the favor by giving you my honest opinion. You can do whatever you want with my opinion.

"do i really have plenty of time?"

Yes. If you take that to heart.. and settle down some.. you will "see" it.

"even with separation agreement being worked out?"

Yes. Right now and going forward.. you do nothing to move the D forward. Protect yourself.. but don't move forward with anything. From what I have read.. you seem satisfied with the terms of the agreement. So.. leave it at that. You need to document where he is "slacking" in this agreement. If he owes you money.. he owes you money. It is that simple. Ask the L if there is a time limit on you claiming back monies. I don't know that enforcing the agreement right now is a smart thing to do.

"that long hard look in the mirror is ugly."

Don't watch yourself too long. It has a bad effect on things.

"and this also isn't mind reading?"

To a point.. yes. But.. now you know the things that were wrong. And you can toss them out and stop doing them. This makes you a much better "mind-reader". My mentor asked me what my job in the marriage was. He let me ramble on about all the things a man would say if asked a question like that. Then.. he looked at me and smiled.. and said.. "Your job is to know your wife." That was it. In that moment he impressed upon me that the only thing I needed to do.. was to understand.. and know my wife. I was living at my Mom&Dads house.. to say I had a little bit of anger.. is an understatement. But.. I got it.. and somehow managed to turn things around some. So.. what does that say to you? What is your job?

"we were struggling to have children."

This is something to focus on. It is the one thing in your "we" statements that stood out. I don't want to know why.. it worked or didn't. But this has been a turning point in so many marriages. I suspect that is true here.

If you really look at the way you worded and "numbered" your statements.. you can "see" the decline.

1.. we were struggling to have children.
2.. we both neglected our m because chores, responsibilities got in the way.
3.. we moved from a big city to a smaller city - less things to do. life got boring.
4.. we spent too much time together and didn't have separate hobbies to work on. i understand that it is important to have individual time.
5.. we took each other for granted.
6.. we were no longer communicating effectively. this affected our sex life a great deal.

Kinda resembles a time line to me some.

"in all honesty, i learned to live a better life when he came into my world. he showed me how to live well. for that, i am truly grateful."

I believe.. people "pay things forward". Or your actions speak louder than you words. It most likely has to do with me being a Physical LL guy. This.. is what you need to mimic.. in order to win. Not 100% sure how that translates to you in RL action.. but it seems to be the key for me in your "stitch".

I did read all of it.. but I focused on the things that stood out.

Right now.. I want you to focus on the here and now. You have got to find a way to pull your mind away from the stuff you are "learning". The general idea in my head is that the next time you run into him.. I want him to "see" a different person. You can't seem down.. you can't give him the "look".. you can't sigh in front of him.

The road ahead.. even if he comes back.. is rough. Don't think for a moment that it will be easy.

Lets leave it at that.. over the next week.. I want you to figure out a way to get yourself 10% more normal/relaxed. Find some stop signs for the idea you can't win.

"Work on being confident, positive"

"And somehow, you have to speak his gift LL. I am not sure how to do it but really, really think about this one."

Yes.

[theGoodGirl]

"the only implicit boundaries i've set are that when you ask for a divorce, we can't be friends."

So.. then why are you here? He has asked for a D.. you have signed the papers.. and it is just a matter of time.

the papers haven't been signed yet.
the Ls are still working out the separation agreement.
i think h has to complete the paperwork for the d himself and he can pay the fees himself. i don't know if i have to sign anything. i haven't been served with d papers. i really don't know how the process works.
it's the blind leading the blind.

Is this not negotiable.. like the "asking for D" statement?

infidelity is not negotiable.

I don't know.. my code seems much more clear to me.. than what you say sometimes.

i apologize if i seem vague.
i hold back on things because i fear my h lurking.
i think he is aware of this site and my concern is that he is trying to thwart my db-ing efforts.

I expect you to understand some things. I think that simply because you were smart enough to find this place. You understood that it could very likely help you. I expect that you have done your homework.

i've read a lot of threads. i read the db book. i have not read the dr book yet.
i understand the concepts. i read the threads to see if the concepts are practical and whether they really work in helping folks save m's. the more i read, the less confident i felt.
people were going dark, doing 180s, GAL-ing .. all for what? were m's being saved? no. these concepts were really to save the LBS from the grip of depression. yeah, they walked away with a new lease on life and ready for a new r.
me? i'm not looking to make me better for the next r. i want to make me better for the r that i had with my h.
i feel hopeful one day and then i read a thread about how they've tried and is still headed for d. and i wonder whether i am just fooling myself.

From my point of view.. you walked into this whole D thing with your head down.. and having no clear understanding of where you were going.

i won't deny that. my ic told me that it can only be saved if the two of you want to save it. it can't be saved when one of you wants to save it. but a d can happen if only one of you wants it. i don't have a say in it.

You have said.. that if it came to D.. you were done. He was out of your life.. and you would live happily ever after.. alone.

But.. "here" you are. Back-tracking. By posting you said.. "Help me save my marriage". Not only that.. you raised your hand and said I really need help.

we are still legally married. just separated.
when i raised my hand for help. i really wanted know:

a) this is my sitch. can it be saved?
b) what can i do to increase the odds of a reconciliation?
c) i have 8 months to work on me and transform me from this to a new GG.

i saw this separation period as a time to work on myself and i was having difficulties starting my "db" efforts. i don't mean the 180s or GAL-ing - those things change the outer appearance of a person. the part that i was really stuck on was the introspection. looking within myself and asking myself where did i go wrong? it was only after you started asking me questions and i felt like you were really trying to help me that i was willing to give you honest answers. if i thought your advice was hocus pocus, i wouldn't be this honest and i wouldn't be giving you so much information to work with. nobody has ever asked me why i wanted to save my m or why i felt this m made me a better me. it made me really think and get the wheels going.

i don't want my db effort to be about me. it's about my m - how to get it back. i know that if we end up d-ing, no amount of db-ing will lessen the heartache. it's like being amputated. life will go on and you'll live but a part of you will always be missing. things will not be the same and it won't be for the better. and don't say it will be because when was losing a limb better than being whole?

i know that d-ing doesn't necessarily lead to happiness. in fact, i've been told by some divorcees that they regretted jumping into d. they look back and think they should have fought to stay married. which is why i am fighting for my m.

when the fat lady sings, i'll go on my way. solo. until then, i need to figure out the inner me.

The best thing you can do is give me honest answers. I will return the favor by giving you my honest opinion. You can do whatever you want with my opinion.

i have been honest so far. i think i revealed more in your replies than i have elsewhere. i couldn't post this on the newcomers forum. i have read the posts there and i swear, if bummedout starts replying to my thread, i'll end the thread.

Yes. Right now and going forward.. you do nothing to move the D forward. Protect yourself.. but don't move forward with anything. From what I have read.. you seem satisfied with the terms of the agreement. So.. leave it at that.

the terms are being reviewed by both sides. i expect it to be done by the end of the month.

So.. what does that say to you? What is your job?

my job is to know my h.

"we were struggling to have children."

This is something to focus on. It is the one thing in your "we" statements that stood out. I don't want to know why.. it worked or didn't. But this has been a turning point in so many marriages. I suspect that is true here.

we wanted to start a family. h was sympathetic when we failed every month. but when he dropped the d-bomb, he said he wasn't sure if he wanted to have kids. he felt he was too old for kids. and he was tired of putting up with my crying every month when we failed to get pregnant.

If you really look at the way you worded and "numbered" your statements.. you can "see" the decline.

1.. we were struggling to have children.
2.. we both neglected our m because chores, responsibilities got in the way.
3.. we moved from a big city to a smaller city - less things to do. life got boring.
4.. we spent too much time together and didn't have separate hobbies to work on. i understand that it is important to have individual time.
5.. we took each other for granted.
6.. we were no longer communicating effectively. this affected our sex life a great deal.

Kinda resembles a time line to me some.

i didn't do that on purpose. you told me to speak in terms of "we" so i did. and those were the things that came to mind.
what does that tell you?

I believe.. people "pay things forward". Or your actions speak louder than you words. It most likely has to do with me being a Physical LL guy. This.. is what you need to mimic.. in order to win. Not 100% sure how that translates to you in RL action.. but it seems to be the key for me in your "stitch".

i'm going to need a summary of everything.
i know i need to drop the snide look.
i need to stop seeing everything as an attack on me.
i need to take note of h's LL and apply when appropriate.
i need to show h the happy me. hopefully he doesn't think that i'm happier without him so d-ing is the right thing to do.
i need to look at myself and what i did to contribute to the r breakdown. try and work on those areas.

Right now.. I want you to focus on the here and now. You have got to find a way to pull your mind away from the stuff you are "learning". The general idea in my head is that the next time you run into him.. I want him to "see" a different person. You can't seem down.. you can't give him the "look".. you can't sigh in front of him.

i am trying to stay away from the negative threads here.
i am journaling my thoughts so i don't get any panic attacks.
i post on my thread to release any thoughts i have. this thread has been very helpful for my mental well-being.
i haven't had a panic attack in almost two weeks now.
and i will try to to appear happier next time i see him.

The road ahead.. even if he comes back.. is rough. Don't think for a moment that it will be easy.

i believe it. rebuilding trust doesn't happen overnight.

Lets leave it at that.. over the next week.. I want you to figure out a way to get yourself 10% more normal/relaxed. Find some stop signs for the idea you can't win.

i do want to continue taking yoga to relax myself. i do that on weekends but may want to do it during the week as well.

"And somehow, you have to speak his gift LL. I am not sure how to do it but really, really think about this one."

this one is tough. will require some creativity and thought.

thanks for giving me something to work on. i appreciate your advice. it seems more realistic and not pushy.

GG

[Coach]

Here is the link I still use to get on the DB site, I used to read this everyday when I first go here. There is a lot of wisdom on it.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...ite_id=1#import

i don't know why it's being done. but the advice i get from every counsellor is that when one of you wants out, nothing can be done.

Not knowing why can be frustrating. Normally the WAS can't bear the emotional pain of staying vs the emotional pain of leaving. Leaving becomes the better option. So they cope by having a A, rewriting history, script, fog, etc. You are only responsible for your part of the problems in the marriage.

You sound like a very grounded, secure and capable woman. He feels a lot, he gets other peoples feelings and he is very aware of how others feel. Co-dependence helps you fine tune these skills. He really wants to be needed, his Mom and Dad need him. You are independent. You both wanted children, a area you needed him in and it didn't work out. This is crushing to him. This IMO is a huge source of emotional pain for him. Co-dependent people have a hard time expressing their own feelings. Especially their own wants and what hurts them.

I was very co-dependent. I had to deal with my FOO issues. I had to do my work. I so wanted to feel better about myself and be loved for who I was. To let someone down is awful to a co-dependent. I didn't think I was lovable if anyone could really see inside me (intomesee). I share this to maybe help you have some compassion for your H. Compassion is the solution for anger.

Your H's parents are feeding the co-dependence. They cause him emotional pain - shame, fear, guilt. All negative emotions. That is his problem. You can't control his parents or him.

As much as this hurts it is a time of growth for you. A story that helped me is the Stockdale Paradox.

Cheers
Coach

[theGoodGirl]

coach, forrest, lauraoh.
you guys are really making me open up. it might be time to reveal more about my sitch from my perspective.

it started in nov '09.
we had been having difficulties conceiving.
i decided to take a break from work to get myself checked out by a specialist.
i told h about my decision. the goal wasn't to get pregnant. the goal was to find out why two healthy adults couldn't do it naturally.
maybe it was bad timing - it was near h's b-day.
he got agitated. and ended up saying that he felt that i wasn't ready for motherhood and that he didn't have the confidence that i could handle motherhood.
he said i was a constant procrastinator and that i never finish a task.
he asked me if i really felt that i could all the chores, the cleaning, laundry, cooking, managing the household, all while taking care of a newborn on lack of sleep.
i asked what he would be doing. he said he would have to focus on work because somebody had to put food on the table.
we were financially secure at the time. there was no need for him to put in extra hours or anything. his job was a major source of stress for him. i simply did not see him putting in any extra hours for a job he did not like.
i was really hurt by his comments.
in my mind, we would make great parents. we both had wonderful parents. we talked about how we would raise our kids. we even had names picked out.
but to hear my h say he didn't think i could handle motherhood was like being kicked in the stomach.
i tried to put it out of my head and i told myself - he's just scared.
but it wouldn't go away. i managed to be happy and cheerful for his b-day but the weight of those words brought on depression. i cried 2-3 times a day for two weeks. every time i looked in the mirror, it was like the words kept coming back at me.
i went silent for a while and h called my silence "b*tchfest". i go silent because i need to think about what i'm going to confront him and how i'm going to say it. i know i have one chance to tell him and i want to get my message clear.
so i told him before christmas that i was really hurt by his comments.
he looked at me and said i don't know why you're hurt. it had to be said and i stand by my comment.
he said that i said we need to keep the communication lines open but when you turn bitch because you can't take criticism, then you are not encouraging me to communicate.
so that was my fault too.
i brushed it off.
when i saw how lovingly he treated his parents, i couldn't understand why he treated me the way he did but be so loving to his parents. i was his w. he hurt me. i told him in plain english. he didn't apologize, showed no remorse, and blamed me for it.
to this day, he still doesn't understand the impact that statement made. yet everybody else says that was a really mean and hurtful thing to say.

i couldn't be loving towards him and even though i tried to put it aside, it was eating away at me. hence, the lack of bedroom action in december.

Not knowing why can be frustrating. Normally the WAS can't bear the emotional pain of staying vs the emotional pain of leaving. Leaving becomes the better option. So they cope by having a A, rewriting history, script, fog, etc. You are only responsible for your part of the problems in the marriage.

i don't know the real reason for the d-bomb.
he said he was no longer in love me because i wasn't the same person who he fell in love with. the girl he fell in love with, wouldn't have treated his parents this way.
he also cited our intimacy. he wanted me to talk to my ic about my intimacy issues. i said you're telling me you want to d but you want me to fix my intimacy issues?
is he confused? does he even know what he wants?

You sound like a very grounded, secure and capable woman. He feels a lot, he gets other peoples feelings and he is very aware of how others feel. Co-dependence helps you fine tune these skills. He really wants to be needed, his Mom and Dad need him. You are independent. You both wanted children, a area you needed him in and it didn't work out. This is crushing to him. This IMO is a huge source of emotional pain for him. Co-dependent people have a hard time expressing their own feelings. Especially their own wants and what hurts them.

the snide person in me would have said "well, he had no problems telling me he wanted a d."

i thought he wanted me to be independent? why would he tell me to be more independent when he really wanted to be needed? don't give me mixed message because i will take it at face value. i don't play games like that. grow up. when i want something, i ask for it.

but looking back, i underestimated the impact of our fertility issues had on him. he knew i wanted children and he feared that i would resent him if we didn't have children.

thank you for the compliment. as i have said in my previous posts, i don't need h but i want him in my life.
i don't say "need" because i don't want to be labelled 'co-dependent' but in some ways, i do need him.
but i can see that in him. i can see that in him now.

I was very co-dependent. I had to deal with my FOO issues. I had to do my work. I so wanted to feel better about myself and be loved for who I was. To let someone down is awful to a co-dependent. I didn't think I was lovable if anyone could really see inside me (intomesee). I share this to maybe help you have some compassion for your H. Compassion is the solution for anger.

how did you realize you were co-dependent and i assume you went to get help?
i have been waiting for a man's opinion for the longest time because i needed to understand h's perspective. i appreciate your honesty and giving me real advice.
when h dropped the d-bomb on me, i was in a state of confusion at first.
then i started talking to people who have been there. i started gaining compassion because i started seeing how his accusations of me were really a projection of himself.
it was almost as if he was mad at me for being able to stand up to his parents because deep down, he wanted to stand up to his parents and yet couldn't. probably because he was co-dependent and he needed them.
in the years that we were married, his father took advantage of h's money. made some bad investments and left h with the empty bag. h never stood up to his father for doing that. i tried to help him recover the losses and we managed to mitigate the damage. h was not happy about the bad investments yet he continues to allow his father to do this. but *i'm* called the gold digger?

a wise friend had talked me through the days when h was throwing accusations at me. and my friend had said listen to what he is saying. you're confused because you don't know where it's coming from right? because it's not about you. if you change the "you" to "i" .. it will make sense. and it did. i started to see that it wasn't about me. it's not you can't handle motherhood. it's "i can't handle fatherhood". it was only then that i started to let go of the anger.

sometimes i need to be reminded about being compassionate.

Your H's parents are feeding the co-dependence. They cause him emotional pain - shame, fear, guilt. All negative emotions. That is his problem. You can't control his parents or him.

i can see that. even knowing this, can i bring him back to our r/m?

As much as this hurts it is a time of growth for you. A story that helped me is the Stockdale Paradox.

that had such a negative spin on it. it's like you're telling me to give up. that it can't be saved. i know it hurts. i'm passed the stage of crying and oh woe is me. i have work to do before it's too late. or is it already too late?

GG