What to do when their friends suggest leaving?

[CityGirl]

The nature of message boards (or any conversation really) is sort of an organic progression of ideas that veer off the main topic.

Ever ask a friend about the weather and the next thing you know you are reminiscing about the perfect game David Wells pitched when he was hung over as hell? Would you be upset because your friend didn't just answer your question about the weather?

I asked you a question, you answered so I asked more questions. I am not sure why the answer to me had to contain jabs at other people. I stand by what I said.. you do seem a bit controlling. I also know how it feels to have no control and you (general you) are reaching for *something*.

I forget the exact statistic but I think it is around 60%... 60% of issues between two spouses will never be "solved" (in your case the friend issue, it may or may not be solved) but if two spouses communicate in a healthy way you both can find middle ground w/o a firm solution.

I guess I would ask what would be the middle ground between you and your W regarding the friend issue?

In your last post there is an awful lot of speculating about what your W is thinking. You are correct, the article may have not caused one bit of damage. It might have caused damage and she just doesn't feel like going round and round with you again. The bottom line is we DON'T know. Sometimes you just have to go with the popular opinion when you are unsure. And it seems, based on my own experience of being in C'ing, an "in person" divorce support group and two online forums that the WAS is not receptive to reading materials. IMO you are just walking on the side of caution.

Sometimes providing more information about other issues actually can help the issue you are so concerned with (in this case the friend issue). You said yourself that you don't understand menopause. How could you? As a man you will not have the experience of having your body change the way a woman's body changes. Heck, it will be at least another 25 years before I understand it. Maybe you are giving your W what you think is good support but it's just not right for her so she is turning to a woman friend.

There are millions of scenarios. IMO there is merit and great benefit to talking about many issues as it it might provide insight to the issue you are really concerned with.

[DaddyLongShanks]

Bummedout,

If we have serious enough problem to mention it to our "friends", a good friend will give good advice. A friend whos not on that level with you won't want to hear it.

Like I said, it helps us to re-categorize our friends.

[Bummedout]

Okay, I'll pick up where I left off.

6) "I think you might find that if the WAS is on the fence agreeing with their stance is actually more powerful than disagreeing."

I'm not sure "is" more powerful" is the correct word really. "Can" be more powerful" is the way to look at it in my book. It is really dependent on the particular situation at any given time. Once can easily "agree" themselves right to divorce court if one just looks at concurrence as an absolute. Right now, it seems more powerful, and yes, it is counterintuitive, as I don't agree that separation is best, for her or for me, so for this situation, I agree with you.

7) "Avoiding huge highs and lows is a very good goal. Now the key will be finding out how you can do that. What will work for you? I can't say "do this, do that" but it is certainly something you can evaluate on a daily basis.

That's exactly it. And I don't expect the highs and lows can be completely avoided, but I think it is in our best interests to keep them too a minimum. As you concur, the trick is "how" to do that, and I also agree that is best dealt with on a day to day, situational basis.

Michele's book I read years ago did sink in somewhat, I think I can kinda see some of it "stuck" in the way I've dealt with it from the start, and has probably helped keep me a bit more balanced and thinking logically than I otherwise would have.

I think this also is possibly part of the gross misunderstanding with some folks here. I'm not some freaked out desperate person, and to be honest, I think some of the people here actually "want" that. Someone who hasn't thrown their brain aside just yet cuts into THEIR egos as knights in shining armor. Again, their past history here speaks volumes about their less-than-altruistic motives.

In a bit of ironic hilarity, Gooch and Robx are having their egos bruised by someone who is still relatively calm and clear thinking. Bugs the CRAP out of them not to be perceived as 'heros'. As you alluded to earlier . . . not sure what they actually fear. At this point, I don't even care.

8)"I think your lack of employment might be a bigger issue than you realize."

I've already concurred to that CG, but I'd have to say you're right . . .and that is not really a good thing. I would find that shallow and selfish on her part, to be honest. Hopefully a job will help negate this part of it, but even that would leave me having to come to grips with the reality that she would throw a marriage away for something like being unemployed. It's not like it's gonna stay that way forever. It might be different if I were doing nothing, but "not working" is simply 'not me.' One thing nobody can reasonably accuse me of is not being motivated. If I'm not looking actively for a job, I'm beating the bushes for some short term work. I'm not sitting around watching Oprah and Golf. Some of the shortsighted folks here seem to equate "unemployed" as an automatic indication one is lazy or some sort of leach or something.

9) "That doesn't make you a "lump on the couch" but it is a valid concern IMO."

Well I'm not in agreement on that one,CG. I agree it is a valid concern . . .for us as a couple. Again, if the shoe were on the other foot, It wouldn't even cross my mind to put any "blame" on her.
I would consider a problem we had to work through. It would be "our" problem, and I'd never believe she was part of my problem on that topic. That being said, I have to accept that this may in fact be a big part of it . . . . but that does not take away the reality that it shouldn't be.

10) . . "IMO it simply glosses over important things both parties are trying to share and express."

Much of that I've covered above, so I'll try to avoid too much redundancy. Much of what some are trying to share isn't wanted, wasn't asked for, and was offered rather rudely to begin with. That weight is theirs to bear, not mine. I'm simply not gonna take crap from pretenders who get touchy when someone has 'the audacity' to question their advice that wasn't asked for in the first place.

I don't agree with some of what you said Citygirl, and of course you don't agree with much of my opinion either . . .yet I'm not really having a problem talking to ya here. I'm not Genghis Khan, as I've pointed out already, but I don't suffer fools very well either . . .and nobody should.

There are some people here who clearly do more harm than good, and oddly, some of them are clearly "regulars" who abuse their status. Gooch in particular has a real knack for leading people down the wrong path and still manages to have the very people he's not doing any favors for being greatful. That's scary, really.

Anyway, in closing, I do appreciate your more reasonable demeanor. Gooch and Robx can learn a thing or two from you. Thanks.

[Bummedout]

I am not sure why the answer to me had to contain jabs at other people. I stand by what I said.. you do seem a bit controlling.

Hey CG,
Like I said, we aren't gonna agree about everything, or even apparently most things, heheh. As for why I took jabs at others throughout the post . . .a few reasons.

[Bummedout]

Bummedout,

If we have serious enough problem to mention it to our "friends", a good friend will give good advice.

Hey DSL,
Yea, that's what people would tend to think, but the problem is, that for the most part, it isn't true. That was actually the crux of the article I gave her from this website.

Yea, it's true and I agree with you that friends who "don't want to hear it" need to be re-evaluated and might not be all that great a friend as we thought.

The REAL problem though IS the "good friends" They mean well. They will listen. The problem is, and again this is one of, if not THEE most important point the article about friends advice here on this website points out.

"Good" Friends who listen want to make you happy. They will try to key on what you think will make you happy. They tend to want to help you remove things that make you 'unhappy" from your life.

If my wife decides I am the source of all the problems, and relays that to her friends, well meaning or not, they'll tend to support her "getting rid of" whatever is making her unhappy.

These threads are FILLED with stories of people who thought they were unhappy with their spouses. Many, maybe even most times, it turns out their spouses weren't the problem at all.

But at the time that is who they blamed . . . to their friends . . .who advised them that "maybe divorce is best" or "maybe you should try a trial separation" or "maybe you should get out and date."

That's human nature, as it turns out. Read the article, it makes sense. And that DID factor into my divorce a decade ago. My ex DID listen to her friends. She DID leave me. She DID start dating. She DID Divorce me. And yes, later, she DID realize she had made a mistake, and she DID want to come back, but by then it was too late.

So . . .anyone who isn't at least interested in discussing and exploring possible ways of mitigating this damage is sticking their heads in the sand. Sometimes there will be truly nothing we can do about it. But not every time. I refuse to believe that. Sometimes there may well be something we could do to help a little.

That's all I wanted here for now, and it's cost me getting called all sorts of rather despicable things. Oh well, I have a pretty thick skin, and in the face of blatant disrespect, a fairly acerbic sense of wit . . . that I don't often get to use. There is always a bright side!

[DaddyLongShanks]

BummedOut,

That is put excellently. Yes the phenomina you describe does happen. Sometimes out spouses are seeing themself in "the mirror" and blame us for how they feel. When how they feel may have nothing at all to do with us.

( If my wife decides I am the source of all the problems, and relays that to her friends, well meaning or not, they'll tend to support her "getting rid of" whatever is making her unhappy.
)

What could you have done about this looking back?

[Bummedout]

What could you have done about this looking back?

Thanks, DLS, Looking back, I really don't know. For one thing, I was unaware it was happening back then. Keep in mind that in my situation back then, five minutes (literally) before she walked out the door, I actually thought my marriage was just fine.

To my credit, I did "sense" that her going out with her buddies at night was "not good." When she first started working where she met these girls (2 sisters), she didn't like them at all, and some of the things she told me about them were pretty alarming. And it did surprise me when she started hanging out with them. I didn't think too much about it though, because I"knew" (yea right) my then wife was pretty level-headed.

I brought up those concerns only once, and she got quite defensive about it, so I left it alone after that. I suppose looking back, I should have been a bit pushier . . .so much for the "controlling guy" theory, and if anything, I'm even less so now. Go figure, eh?

But overall . . .I got nothin on what I might have done differently, with regard to that particular part of the problem anyway.

[DaddyLongShanks]

What could you have done about this looking back?

Thanks, DLS, Looking back, I really don't know. For one thing, I was unaware it was happening back then. Keep in mind that in my situation back then, five minutes (literally) before she walked out the door, I actually thought my marriage was just fine.

What was "it"? Being cheated on? Or a combination of her pulling away and cheating on you. Was she also echoing a negative sentament on you at the same time?

To my credit, I did "sense" that her going out with her buddies at night was "not good." When she first started working where she met these girls (2 sisters), she didn't like them at all, and some of the things she told me about them were pretty alarming. And it did surprise me when she started hanging out with them. I didn't think too much about it though, because I"knew" (yea right) my then wife was pretty level-headed.

So she started hanging out with these females who didn't like her at first. How did they lure her in, and where they still hanging around after the house was broken up? Many of these friends around for when the house is being broken up split once the work is done.

I brought up those concerns only once, and she got quite defensive about it, so I left it alone after that. I suppose looking back, I should have been a bit pushier . . .so much for the "controlling guy" theory, and if anything, I'm even less so now. Go figure, eh?

So being more demanding in the situation would have helped you? Or did it matter since she was not listening by time she got deep into it.

But overall . . .I got nothin on what I might have done differently, with regard to that particular part of the problem anyway.

So looking back are you saying there was nothing you could have done or it would have been too complex? What did the problem look like looking back ( define the problem )?

Thanks.

[Bummedout]

What was "it"? Being cheated on? Or a combination of her pulling away and cheating on you. Was she also echoing a negative sentament on you at the same time?

No, what I meant by "it" was 'talking to her friends' about me. Didn't know about the rest of it either, heheh, but I meant talking to her friends about me in this instance.

So she started hanging out with these females who didn't like her at first.

I don't know what they thought of her at first, only that she didn't think much of them.

How did they lure her in, and where they still hanging around after the house was broken up?

I have no idea how, or even if they "lured her in" so-to-speak. They worked together in close proximity, and having been in work environments myself where one works in close proximity to others, I suppose it just sorta "happened". That's just speculation on my part though. Who really knows? And yea, they were around for awhile after it all fell apart, though eventually they had some sort of falling out. It was probably only a matter of time, since my ex wasn't by nature their "type" These girls really were nuts, I'm talking "Jerry Springer" nuts too.

Many of these friends around for when the house is being broken up split once the work is done.

Well I don't believe it was any sort of preconceived scheme on the part of the "whack-sisters" or anything to simply 'destroy a marriage, then move on to the next victim" thing.

So being more demanding in the situation would have helped you?

I don't know, really. More 'demanding?' Demanding stuff rarely works well for any life situation, so probably not. But yes, I think I probably should have put up more resistance, in hindsight. Probably should have asserted my misgivings about her hanging with these troublemakers a bit stronger. I've never been one to tell folks who they can be friends with, other than my kids when they were younger. But sometimes what seems right isn't. I should have been more assertive. These girls were nuts, and she did have enough sense I could likely have made a decent case for her curtailing her activities with these moronic white trash nutballs.

. . . Or did it matter since she was not listening by time she got deep into it.

I'm not sure what you mean by that really, DLS.

So looking back are you saying there was nothing you could have done or it would have been too complex? What did the problem look like looking back ( define the problem )?

Oh no, I'm not saying at all that there aren't things I could have done, nor am I saying it was too complex. I'm not sure you're referring to my breakup as a whole or are we still talking about her talking to her friends? Not sure how to define it, or even what you want me to define, really.

[DaddyLongShanks]

What was "it"? Being cheated on? Or a combination of her pulling away and cheating on you. Was she also echoing a negative sentament on you at the same time?

No, what I meant by "it" was 'talking to her friends' about me. Didn't know about the rest of it either, heheh, but I meant talking to her friends about me in this instance.

So she started hanging out with these females who didn't like her at first.

I don't know what they thought of her at first, only that she didn't think much of them.

How did they lure her in, and where they still hanging around after the house was broken up?

I have no idea how, or even if they "lured her in" so-to-speak. They worked together in close proximity, and having been in work environments myself where one works in close proximity to others, I suppose it just sorta "happened". That's just speculation on my part though. Who really knows? And yea, they were around for awhile after it all fell apart, though eventually they had some sort of falling out. It was probably only a matter of time, since my ex wasn't by nature their "type" These girls really were nuts, I'm talking "Jerry Springer" nuts too.

Many of these friends around for when the house is being broken up split once the work is done.

Well I don't believe it was any sort of preconceived scheme on the part of the "whack-sisters" or anything to simply 'destroy a marriage, then move on to the next victim" thing.

So being more demanding in the situation would have helped you?

I don't know, really. More 'demanding?' Demanding stuff rarely works well for any life situation, so probably not. But yes, I think I probably should have put up more resistance, in hindsight. Probably should have asserted my misgivings about her hanging with these troublemakers a bit stronger. I've never been one to tell folks who they can be friends with, other than my kids when they were younger. But sometimes what seems right isn't. I should have been more assertive. These girls were nuts, and she did have enough sense I could likely have made a decent case for her curtailing her activities with these moronic white trash nutballs.

. . . Or did it matter since she was not listening by time she got deep into it.

I'm not sure what you mean by that really, DLS.

So looking back are you saying there was nothing you could have done or it would have been too complex? What did the problem look like looking back ( define the problem )?

Oh no, I'm not saying at all that there aren't things I could have done, nor am I saying it was too complex. I'm not sure you're referring to my breakup as a whole or are we still talking about her talking to her friends? Not sure how to define it, or even what you want me to define, really.

. . . Or did it matter since she was not listening by time she got deep into it.

What I meant by this, was by time she spent time talking about you to her friends, and she got closer to these people she was working with that it was perhaps too late. They hadmore influence on her than you did? That she saw things more like they did and felt like she did not relate to you?

So looking back are you saying there was nothing you could have done or it would have been too complex? What did the problem look like looking back ( define the problem )?

I was wondering what the over all problem looked like in its portions. So you have your wife on her way to an affair, perhaps bridging her to it was hanging out with these co-workers and doing more and more late night activities. Perhaps along the way she's dropping committments with you, causing more disrespect, pulling away, etc. I was just wondering all the pieces of that problem and you are making me look at my problem today at this slice in time as a piece of parts.