What to do when their friends suggest leaving?

[Bummedout]

Well, if this happened in your first marriage then it seems you would have some experience under your belt to deal with it in your second marriage.

Not really CG. As I said above, I didn't do anything about it because I wasn't aware she was even talking about this with her friends, so I have virtually NO experience with how to deal with it. One thing I did learn is that not dealing with it sure didn't contribute to a healthy outcome.

What would you have done the first time around? And why aren't you doing it now if the advice you are getting here is not suitable to you?

If I had it to do over again? Heck, I have no idea. And contrary to what seems to be becoming popular belief here, I'm not here to fish for "what I want to hear" and simply will blindly dismiss anything I don't want to hear. Like I've said a few times already though, is that "It's out of your control, do nothing" has, in all of recorded history, on virtually every topic is not real good advice.

I already know I can't "control" it, and I can't stop it from happening. But, and here is where I'm genuinely perplexed, there are surely ways to help mitigate the damage, even a little. For example, showing her the article.

One thing I'm a little disappointed in, is that I started this thread apart from my other thread, because I wanted to hear what people have done or not done about this particular situation. Instead, I keep hearing from people who feel that doing nothing is best, and apparently it isn't even based on personal experience for most.

It's also annoying that people want to keep telling me that her conversations with her friend isn't the whole problem. I know that. But it's part of the problem, and it's a part that personal experience DOES tell me really shouldn't just be ignored.

Nobody is suggestion you follow anybody or any concept blindly . . .

I know what you're trying to say, but believe me, there are PLENTY of folks in my two threads on this topic who suggest exactly that, and get testy if I don't concur.

. . but there comes a time when one has to accept there are certain things out of their control.

And this may very well be something that is out of my control. But just how out of my control is my concern.
Again, this is why I keep using the term 'mitigate'. I may not be able to solve this part of the problem completely, but if something I say or do might lessen the influence, then in my mind it needs to be considered and discussed, for the possible benefit of all of us.

And your W talking with her friends (which says to me she is looking for validation on her decision to leave you which also says to me she is unsure about her decision) how can you stop it?

Well that is the entire crux of the matter. On this, I believe you probably have it pegged. She may be unsure and is looking for validation. The problem is, when friends supply that validation.

It would be naive to think that friends can't directly influence someone "on the fence" in either direction. I myself have pushed a friend back toward their wife when he was considering leaving her. Did I make the entire decision for him? Of course not. But I was there, I know I had an impact, and I can assure you, that in his state of mind at the time, it could have went the other way pretty easily.

What doesn't help is her friend is an attorney (not a divorce attorney, thankfully) and being a certified paralegal (formerly) myself, I understand how persuasive one has to be to be an effective attorney. And in her field (tort and criminal defense) . . .she's pretty effective.

The next time she mentions talking with her friends put a big smile on your face and say "that is wonderful W, I am so glad you have people to talk to" and go about your business.

And she would SO know exactly how insincere I was being, at least with that particular friend. Yesterday, I just half-cheerfully said something about the car (serpentine belt started squeaking)when she went to visit her friend, and went about my business. Right now I AM doing nothing about it . . . and judging by the chilly vibe when she got home . . .doing nothing isn't exactly moving me ahead in this game.

Honestly, if this has been a problem (granted, not the sole issue) in two marriages perhaps you have to try and figure out what the common denominator is.

Oh yes, must be my fault, heheh. Well I'm not perfect. In my first marriage, I did take my Ex for granted to an extent. But I always treated her with respect. Never yelled and ranted, about anything. I supported her in anything she wanted to do. Never asked where she was going or where she had been, other than anecdotally to make conversation. I just assumed she was as serious about 'the vows' as I was. I took for granted she'd always be there.

I learned not to take anything for granted. Frankly, I'm a pretty good catch. I have virtually NOTHING in my life that I've done that would freak me out if I saw it posted on a billboard. I'm not unattractive, I'm reasonably intelligent, funny . . .when not discussing my life falling apart anyway, faithful, not afraid to work, a good protector and until a few months ago a good provider. I'm a good friend. A half decent listener. I support and encourage her. I tell her I love her every day . .at least until a week or so ago and it doesn't seem appropriate at present.

I don't know what else to say without sounding totally conceited. I'm a danged good and honorable man . . .without a job, and she should know that isn't by my choice. And I haven't been sitting around the hose.

Just reading this thread you want to control the direction of the thread.

Oh yes, I'll cop to that, mainly because few folks are actually addressing what I'd asked for: Their experiences with trying or not trying something relative to this part of my situation.
Frankly, I'm not exerting a lot of control, as evidenced by my playing along and discussing these issues that aren't what I'd started this thread for.

That isn't so much an attempt on my part to exert control, as it is my not blindly subordinating myself to others opinions. For some reason, "not being a simp" seems to lead folks here to think I'm a control freak. I think even my ex would disagree with that assessment. A good tip in life is never take "blunt honesty and openly forthright" to be "a control freak" thing.

You want to control how much influence your W's friends have on her.

You couldn't be more wrong. For starters, at least right now it's ONE friend I'm worried about. And I've never even REMOTELY tried to exert ANY influence or control over her or her friends, when she visits them, talks to them or anything else. Even this friend I only stated one time that I had misgivings about her discussing our business with her. In your defense on that statement, It was in the other thread that I told ya'll I did tell her I didn't want our business being discussed with this woman, and not fifteen minutes later I apologized (no conditions) and told her I had no right to tell her that, but it did bother me.

Other than that, I've not tried to "control" anything. Some of you folks use "Control" WAY too casually and are FAR too quick to label anyone who doesn't roll over belly up as "control freaks. I'm not sure what that means, really. I DO know "the dynamic" of this board is different than when I first came here when my first marriage fell apart. WAY less supportive and interested in helping each other, and seemingly more interested in picking folks apart and getting ticked if they dare question your thoughts and opinions. That is counterproductive to ALL of us.

There are certain things in life we have no control over. We certainly can control how we react but that is really about it.

How we react is what it's ALL about . . . . and I'm trying to just how to do that, rather than how not to do anything. While I do appreciate your taking the time to give me your thoughts on the issue, some of what you've concluded is simply wrong, and more than a little insulting, actially, in some of the implications. That being said, I think some of you could be helpful if ya just cut back on assuming you "have me pegged" and are experts on something many of you clearly have little insight on.

Again, I started this new thread on when friends work against us specifically to hear stories about when people tried to mitigate this specific situation, both successful and not successful.

Instead I get "Do nothing . . . because we say so" and "You're an arrogant pompous control freak" Think what ya will, it's your loss if you feel that way. What I want is to hear others experiences with actually TRYING SOMETHING, successful or not. Maybe "doing nothing" really is the best course . . .but not one person here has really made even a mediocre case for this assertion, and in my entire life, "doing nothing" as a best course of action would truly be a first.

Who Tried something?

[MrBond]

Sometimes doing nothing will produce the response you want. It's not an issue of "control" it's doing something that might work.

For example, if you came home and your W complained that you don't pick your clothes off the ground... every day, you'd start to tune her out. But what if she didn't say anything but left your clothes where they were and let them accumulate. Maybe it'll get you thinking that "hey it's a mess" and you'll pick them up. She gets the result she wanted without saying anything. That's a simplistic example, but you get the picture.

Or of you're talking to a teenager and kept telling him that he couldn't see a certain girl. It's going to make him want to see her even more.

You want a specific plan of action? Well start writing down the actions you have done and if they produced a negative or positive result. Do more of that which gets you a positive. Simple as that.

"A half decent listener."

I think that's your issue right there. You are "hearing" what your W and others are telling you, but you may not be "listening".

No two sitches are exactly alike. You're going to have to start forming your own strategy based on your own circumstances.

[DaddyLongShanks]

Sometimes doing nothing will produce the response you want. It's not an issue of "control" it's doing something that might work.

For example, if you came home and your W complained that you don't pick your clothes off the ground... every day, you'd start to tune her out. But what if she didn't say anything but left your clothes where they were and let them accumulate. Maybe it'll get you thinking that "hey it's a mess" and you'll pick them up. She gets the result she wanted without saying anything. That's a simplistic example, but you get the picture.

Mr Bond, this is an awesome view of how doing NOTHING can be more effective than doing something.

Or of you're talking to a teenager and kept telling him that he couldn't see a certain girl. It's going to make him want to see her even more.

This is true.

You want a specific plan of action? Well start writing down the actions you have done and if they produced a negative or positive result. Do more of that which gets you a positive. Simple as that.

"A half decent listener."

I think that's your issue right there. You are "hearing" what your W and others are telling you, but you may not be "listening".

No two sitches are exactly alike. You're going to have to start forming your own strategy based on your own circumstances.

[Coach]

For this part of my problem to use an analogy, it's kinda like being a mile off shore in a rubber raft and finding three holes in the boat. I only have two patches, and my friend says "Well fix the two holes you can control and forget about the other hole, ya can't do anything about it."

Well . . .I'm gonna keep trying to figure something out. And if I have Cel service in that boat, I'm gonna call and ask others if they have any possible solutions. Hopefully, I won't keep calling folks who advise me that "nope, ya can't fix that hole, might as well forget about it and pay attention to the other two patches until ya sink."

The reality is that the more problems that are dealt with, the more likely a successful outcome. I'm quite aware there are "other holes I can control more effectively." Near as I can tell so far, what I'm seeing is " I don't know of a solution or mitigation, therefore there must not be one, forget about it Bummed and just work on the other two patches"

These are problems that are your responsibility and up to you to choose how you handle it. Doesn't involve another person. You are responsible for your thoughts, feelings and actions.

Nobody is advising to not seek solutions and find a way to have a successful outcome. The advise is focus on what you can control.

Read up on "boundaries in relationships" and "explanatory style."

[robx]

Oh yes, must be my fault, heheh. Well I'm not perfect. In my first marriage, I did take my Ex for granted to an extent. But I always treated her with respect. Never yelled and ranted, about anything. I supported her in anything she wanted to do. Never asked where she was going or where she had been, other than anecdotally to make conversation. I just assumed she was as serious about 'the vows' as I was. I took for granted she'd always be there.

This is the part that noob's on this site always gloss over briefly instead of looking at it deeper as part of a bigger issue and it's an issue.

"...I did take my Ex for granted to an extent. But I always treated her with respect."

So taking someone for granted is respecting them?
Being lazy with the person you married is respecting them?

But since you're married and took "vows", you should hang in there regardless if the other person treats you poorly and takes you for granted? That's a recipe for relationship death.

VOWS are just WORDS.
WORDS without ACTION are MEANINGLESS.

You're on your 2nd marriage and you still don't get this and if you don't fix the problems that caused the problems in the first marriage, you are doomed to repeat those same mistakes in the 2nd and 3rd and 4th, etc. etc. etc.

That's just how it works, until you see this, you'll be asking questions and looking for answers to things that won't make a difference in your relationship with your wife because you aren't asking questions and looking for answers to the real problems.

You aren't the first on this site with this attitude and point of view and you won't be the last.

[Glimmerman]

That's good stuff Robx.

My C told me some time ago that it's not uncommon for the spouse who was walked out on to come into his office talking about vows. He said they can usually remember very few of what the actual vows are, but nearly all of them know the "'til death do us part" piece.

He was being humorous, but as you allude to in your post, there's an element of truth to it.

It's something to hang on to, even for those like me (and maybe moreso for someone like me) whose spouse is starting to be open to the possibility of reconciliation.

Good stuff Robx!

[CityGirl]

Not really CG. As I said above, I didn't do anything about it because I wasn't aware she was even talking about this with her friends, so I have virtually NO experience with how to deal with it. One thing I did learn is that not dealing with it sure didn't contribute to a healthy outcome.

Okay, well, you may have not known it was going on at the time (in your 1st marriage I mean) but now that you *do* know what happened why not think back and brainstorm how you could have handled things in a different way. Perhaps that will help you with further insight to your current situation.


If I had it to do over again? Heck, I have no idea. And contrary to what seems to be becoming popular belief here, I'm not here to fish for "what I want to hear" and simply will blindly dismiss anything I don't want to hear. Like I've said a few times already though, is that "It's out of your control, do nothing" has, in all of recorded history, on virtually every topic is not real good advice.

I think "good advice" is a pretty subjective term. For every situation we come across in life there are usually several options (some quite hidden) on how to deal with problems. Granted, not all the options are *good* and sometimes the ones that seem the most counter intuitive are the best ones. One thing I ask you to consider is you are very emotionally invested in your situation and we are not. Sometimes when you have an awful lot vested in *something* thinking becomes skewed. I get you feel the need to take action of some kind, I think we all can relate to such a feeling. But really, what are the options here? You could set a boundary with your W not to talk to her friend(s) about the marriage problems but that won't make you look very good, will it? Seeing how YOU are talking to us about your marriage problems aren't you sort of doing the same thing?

I already know I can't "control" it, and I can't stop it from happening. But, and here is where I'm genuinely perplexed, there are surely ways to help mitigate the damage, even a little. For example, showing her the article.

For the most part WAS are hardly ever receptive to articles, books, websites or any other form of media that points out they are doing anything wrong.

One thing I'm a little disappointed in, is that I started this thread apart from my other thread, because I wanted to hear what people have done or not done about this particular situation. Instead, I keep hearing from people who feel that doing nothing is best, and apparently it isn't even based on personal experience for most.

Sorry to hear you are disappointed. I do have personal experience in this arena and I will share it with you. My H was having an affair for a very long time. When me moved out under totally false pretenses he moved in with our very best friends. We did everything with this couple and were very close with them. And for months they allowed him to conduct his affair under their roof. What could I do? Nothing. There was not a thing I could do or say that would change the situation. I could have voiced my displeasure but all that would have done is made me look like the wounded wife. Clearly they made a choice and nothing I could do or say was going to change the outcome. Anything I expressed would have created more conflict and validated to my H he did the right thing. I wouldn't say I did "nothing" though. I used that time very, very wisely for ME.

It's also annoying that people want to keep telling me that her conversations with her friend isn't the whole problem. I know that. But it's part of the problem, and it's a part that personal experience DOES tell me really shouldn't just be ignored.

So you weigh the risk and decide how to gamble. You either do nothing or set a boundary you are willing to enforce with your W or approach the friend directly. Out of all three options what do you feel would be best?

Again, this is why I keep using the term 'mitigate'. I may not be able to solve this part of the problem completely, but if something I say or do might lessen the influence, then in my mind it needs to be considered and discussed, for the possible benefit of all of us.

I don't disagree but frankly I can't think of one way for you to 'mitigate' this problem without looking like a huge ass. You are thinking of what YOU want and not what your W wants. And right now your W wants to talk to her friend.

It would be naive to think that friends can't directly influence someone "on the fence" in either direction. I myself have pushed a friend back toward their wife when he was considering leaving her. Did I make the entire decision for him? Of course not. But I was there, I know I had an impact, and I can assure you, that in his state of mind at the time, it could have went the other way pretty easily.

Friends aren't the only influencing factor no matter what the situation. We are bombarded each day with the ideal that a 50% divorce rate in this country is "the normal" and acceptable. If you had a positive impact on a friend that is really great. Like you said, it could have gone either way and that is sort of how life is. There are good and bad influencing factors, it's just how it is. Your W is an adult and it is for her to decide what influences she will succumb to.

What doesn't help is her friend is an attorney (not a divorce attorney, thankfully) and being a certified paralegal (formerly) myself, I understand how persuasive one has to be to be an effective attorney. And in her field (tort and criminal defense) . . .she's pretty effective.

Perhaps. Again, without offending your W or causing further conflict how do you think you can alter this situation? IMO you cannot without looking bad and giving your W validation that she is making the right choice to leave you.

And she would SO know exactly how insincere I was being, at least with that particular friend. Yesterday, I just half-cheerfully said something about the car (serpentine belt started squeaking)when she went to visit her friend, and went about my business. Right now I AM doing nothing about it . . . and judging by the chilly vibe when she got home . . .doing nothing isn't exactly moving me ahead in this game.

Well, the only thing that can move you ahead in the game is you. All WAS have a chilly vibe. You are the obstacle to her happiness (as she sees it now) so it's not surprising she is only dealing with you because she has to.

Oh yes, must be my fault, heheh. Well I'm not perfect. In my first marriage, I did take my Ex for granted to an extent. But I always treated her with respect. Never yelled and ranted, about anything. I supported her in anything she wanted to do. Never asked where she was going or where she had been, other than anecdotally to make conversation. I just assumed she was as serious about 'the vows' as I was. I took for granted she'd always be there.

I never said it was your fault. What I suggested was to (A) draw on your experience since this is your second marriage and the second time you seem to be dealing with this issue and (B) look for commonalities that may give you insight.


Oh yes, I'll cop to that, mainly because few folks are actually addressing what I'd asked for: Their experiences with trying or not trying something relative to this part of my situation.
Frankly, I'm not exerting a lot of control, as evidenced by my playing along and discussing these issues that aren't what I'd started this thread for.

IMO the issues being discussed are very relevant to your thread.

That isn't so much an attempt on my part to exert control, as it is my not blindly subordinating myself to others opinions. For some reason, "not being a simp" seems to lead folks here to think I'm a control freak. I think even my ex would disagree with that assessment. A good tip in life is never take "blunt honesty and openly forthright" to be "a control freak" thing.

Nobody has suggested you blindly do anything. I can't say I feel much different after reading your last post. I do feel that you are in a situation that is out of control (the ending of your second marriage) and you are grasping at ways to try and control the outcome through channels you really don't have a shot with. What work do you need to do on you? IMO that is the only thing you can work on right now.

You couldn't be more wrong. For starters, at least right now it's ONE friend I'm worried about. And I've never even REMOTELY tried to exert ANY influence or control over her or her friends, when she visits them, talks to them or anything else. Even this friend I only stated one time that I had misgivings about her discussing our business with her. In your defense on that statement, It was in the other thread that I told ya'll I did tell her I didn't want our business being discussed with this woman, and not fifteen minutes later I apologized (no conditions) and told her I had no right to tell her that, but it did bother me.

Other than that, I've not tried to "control" anything. Some of you folks use "Control" WAY too casually and are FAR too quick to label anyone who doesn't roll over belly up as "control freaks. I'm not sure what that means, really. I DO know "the dynamic" of this board is different than when I first came here when my first marriage fell apart. WAY less supportive and interested in helping each other, and seemingly more interested in picking folks apart and getting ticked if they dare question your thoughts and opinions. That is counterproductive to ALL of us.

You may have not made a tangible move to control this situation but it is taking up an awful lot of your head space and controlling many of your thoughts. What sort of support would you like? Can you spell out your expectations?

How we react is what it's ALL about . . . . and I'm trying to just how to do that, rather than how not to do anything. While I do appreciate your taking the time to give me your thoughts on the issue, some of what you've concluded is simply wrong, and more than a little insulting, actially, in some of the implications. That being said, I think some of you could be helpful if ya just cut back on assuming you "have me pegged" and are experts on something many of you clearly have little insight on.

I don't imply anything. Take a bit of time to read my posts and you will see that I am a straight shooter. If I had something to say about you, I would, no implication necessary.

Instead I get "Do nothing . . . because we say so" and "You're an arrogant pompous control freak" Think what ya will, it's your loss if you feel that way. What I want is to hear others experiences with actually TRYING SOMETHING, successful or not. Maybe "doing nothing" really is the best course . . .but not one person here has really made even a mediocre case for this assertion, and in my entire life, "doing nothing" as a best course of action would truly be a first.

Unless I missed it nobody called you an arrogant, pompous control freak. And yes, I stand by my original thought.. at this time I don't see a way to do anything without looking like a total jerk. And hey, there is a first time for everything, no?

[Glimmerman]

If I have already told you this story, my apologies. It is about action I DID take and action I chose NOT to take.

My W has a good friend who is seemingly happily divorced who she sought out when we first separated. Did they talk? Yep. Did they talk about our M? Yep. Was it more negative than positive? Most likely.

So, they talk again fairly recently. Did they talk about our M? Yep. Was it more negative than positive? Hold the phones!

My W told this friend that we were thinking about working on our M. The divorced friend said she didn't really have that chance with her XH and told my W it was great to hear.

My point being, and this has been said before, in regard to your M, your W does more to direct the conversation with her friends than her friends do with her. It's her M, not theirs. It's your W's emotions and mindset that her friends will identify (and agree) with.

OK, so you want to know the ACTION that I took. I focused on bettering myself professionally (better pay, better hours, etc), which WILL make me more attractive to my W. She knows what I'm doing as we're in fairly regular contact. As she has watched me start doing this, her attitude and emotions are SLOWLY changing.

That's the action I took.

I will not tell my W who not to associate with. I trust her moral compass. If she violates that (or if I would violate that), we'll have something brand new to talk about.

Hope that helps some.

[tristan]

This is the part that noob's on this site always gloss over briefly instead of looking at it deeper as part of a bigger issue and it's an issue.

"...I did take my Ex for granted to an extent. But I always treated her with respect."

So taking someone for granted is respecting them?
Being lazy with the person you married is respecting them?

But since you're married and took "vows", you should hang in there regardless if the other person treats you poorly and takes you for granted? That's a recipe for relationship death.

VOWS are just WORDS.
WORDS without ACTION are MEANINGLESS.

Nicely said Rob.

[DaddyLongShanks]

Hell maybe the guy took for granted that he could trust her, she would not cheat on him and would treat him with respect. I know for a woman I married, its something I would take for granted as long as I know I was putting her at a sufficient priority.