Better Days

[karen43]

I think it's easier for the WAS to judge and criticize us than look at themselves. It is kind of crazy when you think about it!!! Just ignore the crazy if you can, and it gets better.

[NoLongerHere]

Rarg.

I don't mean to turn into a bitter person (and I won't), but I can't help but wonder if the whole concept of getting married is crazy. To link yourself so absolutely to another person. It's like... buying a house without getting it inspected.

I'm a pretty traditional kind of guy. But I wonder.

[ImprovedRomeo]

Geronimo, it's what makes us different from the animals, we choose to raise kids together...in theory. Though the selfish spouses don't care and would rather feel their lives fulfilled than compromise and learn to work together. I just think back to when they promised so much when they stood there and said their vows- what a bunch of liars!

After this experience I don't think I'll be getting married again not necessarily because I have anything against the concept of marrying but I think the laws are so unbelieveably f'd up that unless I marry up (financially) I'll always get screwed.

[NoLongerHere]

Yeah well.

I actually had a MATURE conversation with her just now. Basically, the takeaway is that I told her I do better when I'm not talking to her so much, and she said she can respect that boundary.

She's been feeling like I've been mad at her for awhile, and she's been doing nice things, like helping me out last Friday, and what she said this morning, and I'm barely talking to her. And she still finds it upsetting when she thinks I'm mad at her.

I did say that her comment this morning made me mad, that of course I'm not so bad, and basically told her, you're not going win. There's nothing you can say. Can't fix this, and you're not going to know how I'm going to respond. Sorry. And she admitted that maybe she does want to have cake and eat it too.

And then she said that we had such a close connection, that there's not very many people that she's had that with in her life. That we were so close in the beginning. She was struggling not to cry.

And I asked her, so you see it?? What we've lost? And I said "I am so mad at you."

And she asked how I can have so much emotion now when I seemed so disengaged at the end.

She sees that I'm happier now.
And I told her I had to go.

Crap.
Yeah, I've been spouting off here on the board, because it's an outlet, and I am mad. And it's not the money, it's not the kids, it's not the stuff she took, it's not the more complicated life, although that's easy to focus on and rant about. And honestly I've got it easy compared to a lot of situations here.

It's that we did have it. And we still do, we still could. And I have to kill what I feel. I have to bear down and push to sign those damn papers, with enthusiasm even, because it's the only sane choice. I can choose to not talk to her, so that I miss her less, so that I'm OK, great even - and she's STILL THERE, but not there. God, I hate her for that. Damn her for saying she misses me. I can't take it. I wish I could demonize her and just be done with her. But that's not how it is. It's the situation I want to be done with.

I asked her, what do you want from me? What do you want from this relationship? And she said... I can't tell you that now, because you've set the boundary.

Well how about that.

&*()ing divorce.

[ImprovedRomeo]

I asked her, what do you want from me? What do you want from this relationship? And she said... I can't tell you that now, because you've set the boundary.

Hmmm...what's up with that? apparently she knows what she wants (or thinks she does) but she won't tell you? because she wants to play games?

Well like she had said before "let's go through the divorce and if we're meant to be together we'll find out".

Or sit her down and have the talk properly without getting mad at her etc.

[Bworl]

Man, am I taking this stuff differently than you guys.

Detaching is good. Necessary even. But remember that we do it to train ourselves to STOP finding our value and self-worth in the words or actions of another.

You don't detach to stop loving her.

You don't detach to start hating her.

You don't detach to figure out how to ignore her.

In the early stages of our marital crisis, we are so wrapped up in our potential loss and the sting of having a spouse announce (through words or actions) that they are done with us, we have a great tendency to start to think negatively of ourselves. We take everything they say, everything they do, and we take it extremely personally as though WE made them do it because WE were somehow bad or seriously flawed.

Well we are flawed, that part is true.

But we did not make them do or say what they've said and done. We certainly would not have chosen for them to want out of our marriage, would we have?


You seem so set on insulating yourself from more potential hurt, that you're trying to cut off your wife from your life.


Ironically, to me at least, this is a sign that you are NOT detached at all - at least in the way I understand and experienced it.


I've told you before - my thoughts about your stituation are that your wife is confused, that she allowed dissatisfaction with your relationship to make her shut down emotionally and eventually choose to exit the relationship, but that she never really stopped loving the man she fell in love with.


So I'll just say it. Understanding that your wife certainly has issues she needs to deal with at some point, there is great possibility in your situation that your marriage can be rebuilt and renewed.


She likes what she's seeing. But this is not a dog and pony show, and I'm glad that you're doing what you're doing for YOU and the kids, NOT for her. That makes it genuine and real.


But what's wrong with her liking it? Was this mess all HER fault? Did you have no flaws or make no mistakes that caused the relationship to deteriorate? I thought the truth was that both sides carry responsibility for what made the marriage less than it should have been. Both sides - not just the side that chose to leave.


So she made decisions you would never have made. That doesn't make her mistakes any more significant than yours.


The problem now is that YOU have worked to fix your flaws. She has not. And now she's a little interested since you don't seem like the old fuddy dud that she got dissatisfied with.


Well, no one is saying to lure her back in. No one is saying accept her back if she wants back in. In fact, I'd advise quite to the contrary. Your wife still has issues, and until she resolves them, it is a fruitless endeavor to even consider any type of reconciliation, regardless of what she might say she wants at some point.


You get to hold her to the need to be real and honest about HER role in the crisis. You do that by not making the mistake of allowing YOUR changes only be enough to bring the two of you back together.


TM is a diversion for you, and she has made this more difficult for you. Because now you are aware that someone can still be interested in you, and that you are still interested in a relationship like that. More importantly, the TM matter is causing you to become hardline with your wife.


That is NOT the approach you wanted when you came here. Is marriage a special thing to be saved or not? Yeah, the work is hard and the times suck, but is marriage special enough to be worth the tough times?


I think anyone who has seen their marriage saved here would say a resounding yes.


Why can't you be you and be satisfied with that for now? Why can't you just enjoy being Dad to your kids, the one who provides and cares for them? Why can't you find joy where you are at, and allow your wife the time she needs to figure out that she's screwed up too?


Sometimes we have to be willing to be the rock.


Not that it doesn't suck at times.


Just my opinion/thoughts.


Blessings,

Bill

[NoLongerHere]

I just have a moment, just just a quick response.

Hmmm...what's up with that? apparently she knows what she wants (or thinks she does) but she won't tell you? because she wants to play games?

No - completely different. I told her what I thought, that I needed to step away from her, and she is trying to be respectful of that - of NOT saying that she wants to be friends. Essentially, she's saying she's not going to ask for what she wants because that's crossing the boundary I set in the conversation.

Bill, yeah, I'm in sync with you, but just having a moment I'm going to read your post again and respond. Yes, there is no definitive answer of I have to be this way or that way. It is true, what I really need and want to do is to get everything steady and be effective as a parent, at work, etc. And I'm pulling it off I think. But on the other hand, I'm trying to cope real-time with what I feel, and for the past week or two I've felt a lot better with trying to distance. It's not an intent to cut her out, or to send a message, or to be mean, or whatever, it's just the corner of this space that I found to sit in for awhile that seemed to work for awhile. With this relationship now I don't have a plan or an expectation or a vision, I'm just trying to navigate, and I guess LEARN what works right. And yeah it's all clouded by the muck that I can't seem to consistantly look above.

OK more later - work is calling my name. Thanks guys.

[imLIN]

RESOUNDING YES!!!!!

Was the trial fun or the journey exciting....heck no...but worth the effort to restore our marriage...make a new marriage, new relationship...make things better for us both?...YES!!!

Bill, you are right on!

[NoLongerHere]

OK - item by item -

You don't detach to stop loving her.

You don't detach to start hating her.

You don't detach to figure out how to ignore her.

I would imagine that detaching should have little to do with her at all.

You seem so set on insulating yourself from more potential hurt, that you're trying to cut off your wife from your life.

Mmmmmm... I'd say it's more like I'm squirming. Trying to find some comfortable position.

Ironically, to me at least, this is a sign that you are NOT detached at all - at least in the way I understand and experienced it.

Very possibly. And I know that I'm still responding to the thoughts of hurt, which is starting to feel self-indulgent in my moments of clarity. And - when I focus on MY life and things I'M doing - that's when I feel the best. I imagine that's the real road to detachment. Finding happiness in what I'm doing - vs. some awareness of separateness.

she never really stopped loving the man she fell in love with.

Yes, I have some good indication that that is true.

there is great possibility in your situation that your marriage can be rebuilt and renewed.

I made the analogy to someone recently that I think it's like this concept of, if you keep moving forward and travel around the earth, you will end up in the place you started. Maybe.

I thought the truth was that both sides carry responsibility for what made the marriage less than it should have been. Both sides - not just the side that chose to leave. So she made decisions you would never have made. That doesn't make her mistakes any more significant than yours.

Yep. I know it. But it's damn easy to be angry, isn't it? I have moments of clarity also and I understand this.

it is a fruitless endeavor to even consider any type of reconciliation, regardless of what she might say she wants at some point.

Yep, and that's the killer, knowing that I would be best walking away anyway. What if? Don't I value marriage? Don't I want to keep my family together, raise my kids in an intact home? Yes to all. And I'd get so indignant that she would choose to walk, see it as selfish, would I be a hypocrite to not choose the marriage? Well it's academic, as the opportunity isn't offered. But, this thinking makes me sqirm.

TM is a diversion for you, and she has made this more difficult for you.

I know.

More importantly, the TM matter is causing you to become hardline with your wife.

You picked up on that, huh? Yeah I've come to understand this. And when it comes down to it its not something that is particularly relevant or important with regard to the real stuff going on.

Yeah, the work is hard and the times suck, but is marriage special enough to be worth the tough times?

Everything in my values says yes.
The trick right now I guess is for me to navigate and accept my current circumstances without becoming cynical.

Why can't you be you and be satisfied with that for now? Why can't you just enjoy being Dad to your kids, the one who provides and cares for them? Why can't you find joy where you are at

I have experienced these moments in the past month. I can.

Sometimes we have to be willing to be the rock.

Mmmmm. It's become a matter of necessity. There isn't a lot of alternative.

Just my opinion/thoughts.

Thank you Bill. I do appreciate it.


I'm having a hard week, but I'm pulling it together. Haven't been getting enough sleep (going to remedy that in a moment), and I'm aware that I'm wigging about the appointment to sign on Monday. There's kind of more to say, but maybe not right now. Night, guys -

[DaddyLongShanks]

Geronimo, it's what makes us different from the animals, we choose to raise kids together...in theory. Though the selfish spouses don't care and would rather feel their lives fulfilled than compromise and learn to work together. I just think back to when they promised so much when they stood there and said their vows- what a bunch of liars!

After this experience I don't think I'll be getting married again not necessarily because I have anything against the concept of marrying but I think the laws are so unbelieveably f'd up that unless I marry up (financially) I'll always get screwed.

What about getting married in the "church", but not by the state - is that at all possible?

Anyway, I'm thinking about all the stuff where complaining about. As men we sound like a bunch of women, thats what these women are doing to us. It really sickens me that there are so many out there in the same position. Theres a ton of crap that were putting up with.