Is this piecing?

[alice444]

First: ((((Luv)))

This is so tough and I think you're doing a good job analyzing what you're doing and thinking. Let us know how IC goes and what their thoughts are. I think a DB coach is a great idea, but I also think you need to at some point know what you want. Is it still M with H? Even despite how he is treating you? Do you think it's possible after all the years of treatment like this, for him to do a 180- and if he did, would you want him then? I think some clarity around those questions might help guide your behavior and DB strategy a bit.

So, here are some opinions, FWIW- some are very opinionated, so don't listen if they don't sound right:

So Ali, this is what I'm struggling with. My H is verbally abusive IMO, and in this way getting angry at least internally is good for me. He bullies me and I let him push me around and mistreat me. So isn't standing up to him and saying stop healthy?

I personally think it's very healthy to get clear in your mind how you want and need to be treated by another human being. If someone were treating S6 the way your H treats you, would you be mad? Start demanding better for yourself, then. I think some positive anger that doesn't go out of balance is healthy- NOT the blowing up yelling type of anger, but an anger that comes out of you realizing that you have allowed yourself to be walked on and treated this way, that acts as a catalyst to you not accepting this treatment anymore. It can be a calm anger, a quiet determination to accept only the best treatment. With your H, "demanding" may not be getting mad at him and saying to treat you better; it might be refusing to talk to or interact with him when he treats you poorly. Somehow you *must* communicate with actions or words that you deserve respect and kindness- whatever happens with your M, Hope, you NEED to do this for yourself. I think your self-esteem has taken a big hit from him and it's going to take time to heal and re-build it. You can't fight for anything- including your M- if you aren't coming from a position of relative strength and self-love. I don't think demanding appropriate treatment is contrary to DB, but how you go about it based on your answers to the questions above and whether you want to continue traditional DB may shape exactly what you do. I think some of us (me incl) have adapted DB principles that work for us and melded it with other stuff to suit our situations. There is no one size fits all approach to anything, including DB. You need to see what works for you and H and S and act accordingly.

On the other hand, DB says to stay dark and no R talks. I know this. But also I have tried this over months and have felt that all it has done is allowed him to think I'm perfectly happy with D, with his explosions, with his blame. Avoidance is a big trait with him and my being quiet also keeps him hiding in his hole. I don't know what to do.

This comes out of love and caring for you that I say, kindly, no, you haven't done this for months, sweetie. You've been pretty inconsistent, from my view. I don't mean this as a criticism, but as an objective observer. You've tried mightily at times, but the periods of dim/dark have been pretty short-lived. My 2 cents- there is a difference between staying dim/doing DB and communicating that you are "perfectly happy" with how he's treating you. Similar to me, you're afraid if you don't remind him constantly you want to save M that he will get the wrong impression. Here's what I did- after a short period of getting along well, I both emailed him and told him (re-read the medium section of the book- if you typically don't have success telling him something verbally without blowups, consider writing a letter or saying it in MC or something) "I haven't changed my mind about wanting to work on our marriage and stay married to you. I will feel this way unless and until I tell you specifically that I feel differently. But I'm not going to keep repeating it. I'm going to take care of me and S now, as those are my biggest priorities." You can add: "If you change your mind about what you want, I'd love to sit down and talk". And LEAVE IT. Do not bring it up again. You have notified him: this is what I want. No matter what I do, this is what I want.

I haven't heard you mention any escalation/increase in talk of real D or L's or anything for awhile now, so I don't think he has necessarily gotten the impression that you're "ok" with the whole thing. And even if he resumes pushing for that, it's more likely him trying to push ahead just to get out of his own pain, and it can STILL turn around, provided you're doing the work AND he makes a decision he's ready to do it, too.

Honey, what I think he is seeing is a kind of yo-yo effect in your behavior, and if there is OW (please keep in mind I know NOTHING about DB strategy with A in picture- so throw this all out if you need to), she may seem like a calm reasonable, attractive option the more you press him on R and fight with him. Now, YOU are a gorgeous, kind, warm, talented person that he would be lucky to have- but if he hasn't learned that by now over the years- and remember he's possessed by an alien- it can't hurt to demonstrate - for yourself and S if nothing else, that you are strong, attractive, independent (=ok without H if you need to be), vibrant woman with her own life. THAT is what is attractive to someone, if you want to catch his attention. At the least, it will make YOU feel better and stronger to live into that, even if you don't feel 100% confident or independent now.

I think you could use some distance from H. I think he saps (and sometimes you let him) your self-confidence and leaves you feeling worse when you guys react off of each other. I would consider not having him be at your house with S- you need your own space away from him, and that is YOUR house, he is in YOUR space. I remember a few weeks ago you had a *terrific* night with feeling like it was your space and he was a visitor and nothing he did or said was going to get to you. I seem to remember you saying he even tried to initiate a nice convo at one point that night. I think right now you need him to take S elsewhere for your well-being so he's not in your space. Or, you can go to a friend's or run errands when he's there. You can even be vague "I have plans" if you want. I guarantee he will be thinking and wondering where you are- this is much more advantageous to piquing his curiosity than if you remain in the house. Remember, you will have told him you want to work on the M already, so this will NOT send a message that you've given up; it will make him wonder what you're up to when he's not there to watch.

Part of me thinks if I want someone to treat me nicely and with respect, I need to do the same and that means letting him go if he wants and not ever reacting in hurt or anger myself. The other part of me thinks he has mistreated me for so long I need to show anger and stand up for myself instead of withering and crying when he berates me.

I think you're right on both counts, and it's somewhere in between. If you want, re-read the section in DB on arguing, not engaging stuff. My next 2 cents- you can treat him politely and distantly, like you would an acquaintance who has no pull on you. You can choose to not react in hurt or anger- it's not good for either of you and I think you could use practice dis-engaging and stepping back- you've done it REALLY well a few times that I've seen and are perfectly capable of it! I don't think you need to show anger, but a very determined, calm "I am not going to discuss this with you when you are [yelling/berating/name-calling, etc]. When you are calmer and respectful, we can talk". It's not baiting, it's not reactive. It is your "party line" and you can stick to it. You have a way to tell him how you deserve to be treated, and it may be a little more "passive" than you're tempted to do, but it's the better way than yelling back. You will want to look back on this time with the highest integrity- you didn't always stoop to his level (but it's ok if you backslide, we all do!). Your S didn't observe you behaving in a disrespectful manner. And it's NOT letting him walk all over you to do this calmly and not get angry back. I think sometimes- maybe women esp- we think anger=power. That the louder, angrier person "wins". It's not necessarily true. The calm, logical, distanced person has much more leverage and strength, IMO, AND ends up feeling better and not regretting their behavior afterwards.

My H and I aren't very volatile at all, but I've had a few instances recently where I felt he was looking for a fight. You know what? The calmer and less engaged I became, the more ridiculous it looked - and it ended up going nowhere b/c I wouldn't engage. And we got along fine after that. Sure, I wanted to argue my position and get mad and be "right", but that never has worked for me with him, so I'm trying something new. He already knows how I feel about 99% of things anyway, based on past history- if he didn't listen or understand me before, I'm not expecting or trying to make him now- he's not in a frame of mind to do so, and neither is your H.

I think of the Tasmanian Devil (well, H never got that worked up, but I've experienced this with other people)- I'm sitting there watching them whirl themselves into a frenzy, getting faster and faster and more and more upset/angry, and I just sat there, observing, like "hmmm, this is interesting." You have much power if you are the distanced, calm, non-reactive one- they tire themselves out after awhile and look foolish. It doesn't make you look passive or weak, even though it might feel like that at first if you're used to yelling back- it makes you the strong one, the one who quietly refuses to accept poor treatment and leaves with her self-esteem intact.

So, Hope, remember this comes out of much love and caring for you. I'm torn up seeing how unhappy you are at times- and I think you have it in you to take back your self-esteem and create a happier place, with or without H, as painful as that is to hear right now. It's what I and a lot of us are needing to do right now, too.

I wish you strength and peace today and always- and please keep posting here- even if you backslide or whatever, you are not, repeat NOT disappointing us. We are here to support you no matter what.

((((extra hugs))))

-Alice