Also my dad was here and gave me a pep talk. He says why are you depressed? You should be mad! Like Kalni said, it's good for self esteem. My dad said depression is anger turned inward toward the self. He encouraged me to get mad and stand up to H more. I hope I can.
Also had a nice rehearsal and ate a little better today, smoked a little less. Feels good.
Hey Hopeforlove. I just wanted to say... great that your Dad is supporting you and my Dad said similiar stuff to me.
BUT.. your Dad is not DBing and "getting mad and standing up to H more" is not really going to help your cause (well other than if you just do it internally, to help you detach, which would be helpful). If you are done, fine, get mad, get even, stand up to him and tell him to go swing etc. But, I would caution against taking relatives advice, they want to help and cant bare to see you hurt and unhappy and therefore give advice to "end" your suffering and help you move on.
It doesnt sound to me like you are ready/want to move on, so I would say, try not to listen to advice from people who dont understand the "counterintuitive" behaviour required when DBing.
Ok, so you backslid and asked him to work on the M. Just pull back now and try really hard to not initiate any contact with him. You need to try and sit on your hands next time :-) Good luck at the IC.
Me:40! H:37 Together: 12yrs IDLY & left 11/07 ADs 03/08 OW 8/08 Reconciled 05/09 now married! my thread
So Ali, this is what I'm struggling with. My H is verbally abusive IMO, and in this way getting angry at least internally is good for me. He bullies me and I let him push me around and mistreat me. So isn't standing up to him and saying stop healthy?
On the other hand, DB says to stay dark and no R talks. I know this. But also I have tried this over months and have felt that all it has done is allowed him to think I'm perfectly happy with D, with his explosions, with his blame. Avoidance is a big trait with him and my being quiet also keeps him hiding in his hole. I don't know what to do.
Part of me thinks if I want someone to treat me nicely and with respect, I need to do the same and that means letting him go if he wants and not ever reacting in hurt or anger myself. The other part of me thinks he has mistreated me for so long I need to show anger and stand up for myself instead of withering and crying when he berates me.
And also, you know I see him a few night a week when he comes here to stay with S5. I'm on the couch. How does one go dark when he's in the house besides staying in the next room?
Also, I wasn't the pursuer in our R, generally we avoided each other in a lot of ways and grew apart. So I don't know that pullback is so much of a 180! It's more of the same! Now I also see how R talks don't work so I don't know what to do! Time for a DB coach, I think~!
But I was reading one of your old threads where everyone said that NC is the only way to success...so I need to rethink this. I need to find ways to be gone or completely ignoring him when he's here - and although I can't do NC because of our S, I can do what Kalni suggested and keep it very business like and brief. I know I have not done NC = just the PMA, showing a happy me, no R talks, I have tried these and it hasn't seemed to help. However, drawing boundaries with his bad behavior has....Help people~!
I'd agree that you want to avoid both R talks and "withering and crying when he berates" you. However, I also feel you don't want to get angry with H and stand up to him, because that will just give him another chance to blame everything on you.
My father had his own MLC when I was growing up in the house, and I HATED it when my mother would respond to his angry and unreasonable outbursts with withering, crying, etc. He wasn't being fair--but she wasn't being fair to herself, either, by giving away all her power.
So imagine my horror when I realized I'd been responding to my H's angry outbursts in exactly the same way. I was thrown so offbalance by the injustice of what H said, by the fact that this sweet guy was behaving like a monster, etc, etc, that I'd either collapse in a bewildered and miserable heap, or endlessly (and fruitlessly) try to defend myself, escalating the argument and turning into this shrew I hated.
It was only much further along in the process that I reached a point where I detached from his anger. I could see that it was entirely his issue, and vowed never to engage with him when he was angry, or to let him see me in tears. Instead, I'd calmly state, "H, that's not appropriate," and walk away, or just look at him and walk away. One day he admitted later, "When I saw you look at me like that, I knew I'd gone too far." If he followed me, I'd calmly refuse to engage with him. When he saw that I was no longer affected by them, the angry outbursts almost disappeared.
Would a similar approach work for you? You could start by practising in your head what you could say as you walked away, feeling the sense of detachment this would give you.
I just saw your other post. It's tricky when you're in a small place. I just kept very busy when H was there, doing laundry, ironing, sorting papers, cleaning, etc, and it helped to burn up my nervous energy (and as well, the house had never looked so good)!
This is so tough and I think you're doing a good job analyzing what you're doing and thinking. Let us know how IC goes and what their thoughts are. I think a DB coach is a great idea, but I also think you need to at some point know what you want. Is it still M with H? Even despite how he is treating you? Do you think it's possible after all the years of treatment like this, for him to do a 180- and if he did, would you want him then? I think some clarity around those questions might help guide your behavior and DB strategy a bit.
So, here are some opinions, FWIW- some are very opinionated, so don't listen if they don't sound right:
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
So Ali, this is what I'm struggling with. My H is verbally abusive IMO, and in this way getting angry at least internally is good for me. He bullies me and I let him push me around and mistreat me. So isn't standing up to him and saying stop healthy?
I personally think it's very healthy to get clear in your mind how you want and need to be treated by another human being. If someone were treating S6 the way your H treats you, would you be mad? Start demanding better for yourself, then. I think some positive anger that doesn't go out of balance is healthy- NOT the blowing up yelling type of anger, but an anger that comes out of you realizing that you have allowed yourself to be walked on and treated this way, that acts as a catalyst to you not accepting this treatment anymore. It can be a calm anger, a quiet determination to accept only the best treatment. With your H, "demanding" may not be getting mad at him and saying to treat you better; it might be refusing to talk to or interact with him when he treats you poorly. Somehow you *must* communicate with actions or words that you deserve respect and kindness- whatever happens with your M, Hope, you NEED to do this for yourself. I think your self-esteem has taken a big hit from him and it's going to take time to heal and re-build it. You can't fight for anything- including your M- if you aren't coming from a position of relative strength and self-love. I don't think demanding appropriate treatment is contrary to DB, but how you go about it based on your answers to the questions above and whether you want to continue traditional DB may shape exactly what you do. I think some of us (me incl) have adapted DB principles that work for us and melded it with other stuff to suit our situations. There is no one size fits all approach to anything, including DB. You need to see what works for you and H and S and act accordingly.
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On the other hand, DB says to stay dark and no R talks. I know this. But also I have tried this over months and have felt that all it has done is allowed him to think I'm perfectly happy with D, with his explosions, with his blame. Avoidance is a big trait with him and my being quiet also keeps him hiding in his hole. I don't know what to do.
This comes out of love and caring for you that I say, kindly, no, you haven't done this for months, sweetie. You've been pretty inconsistent, from my view. I don't mean this as a criticism, but as an objective observer. You've tried mightily at times, but the periods of dim/dark have been pretty short-lived. My 2 cents- there is a difference between staying dim/doing DB and communicating that you are "perfectly happy" with how he's treating you. Similar to me, you're afraid if you don't remind him constantly you want to save M that he will get the wrong impression. Here's what I did- after a short period of getting along well, I both emailed him and told him (re-read the medium section of the book- if you typically don't have success telling him something verbally without blowups, consider writing a letter or saying it in MC or something) "I haven't changed my mind about wanting to work on our marriage and stay married to you. I will feel this way unless and until I tell you specifically that I feel differently. But I'm not going to keep repeating it. I'm going to take care of me and S now, as those are my biggest priorities." You can add: "If you change your mind about what you want, I'd love to sit down and talk". And LEAVE IT. Do not bring it up again. You have notified him: this is what I want. No matter what I do, this is what I want.
I haven't heard you mention any escalation/increase in talk of real D or L's or anything for awhile now, so I don't think he has necessarily gotten the impression that you're "ok" with the whole thing. And even if he resumes pushing for that, it's more likely him trying to push ahead just to get out of his own pain, and it can STILL turn around, provided you're doing the work AND he makes a decision he's ready to do it, too.
Honey, what I think he is seeing is a kind of yo-yo effect in your behavior, and if there is OW (please keep in mind I know NOTHING about DB strategy with A in picture- so throw this all out if you need to), she may seem like a calm reasonable, attractive option the more you press him on R and fight with him. Now, YOU are a gorgeous, kind, warm, talented person that he would be lucky to have- but if he hasn't learned that by now over the years- and remember he's possessed by an alien- it can't hurt to demonstrate - for yourself and S if nothing else, that you are strong, attractive, independent (=ok without H if you need to be), vibrant woman with her own life. THAT is what is attractive to someone, if you want to catch his attention. At the least, it will make YOU feel better and stronger to live into that, even if you don't feel 100% confident or independent now.
I think you could use some distance from H. I think he saps (and sometimes you let him) your self-confidence and leaves you feeling worse when you guys react off of each other. I would consider not having him be at your house with S- you need your own space away from him, and that is YOUR house, he is in YOUR space. I remember a few weeks ago you had a *terrific* night with feeling like it was your space and he was a visitor and nothing he did or said was going to get to you. I seem to remember you saying he even tried to initiate a nice convo at one point that night. I think right now you need him to take S elsewhere for your well-being so he's not in your space. Or, you can go to a friend's or run errands when he's there. You can even be vague "I have plans" if you want. I guarantee he will be thinking and wondering where you are- this is much more advantageous to piquing his curiosity than if you remain in the house. Remember, you will have told him you want to work on the M already, so this will NOT send a message that you've given up; it will make him wonder what you're up to when he's not there to watch.
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Part of me thinks if I want someone to treat me nicely and with respect, I need to do the same and that means letting him go if he wants and not ever reacting in hurt or anger myself. The other part of me thinks he has mistreated me for so long I need to show anger and stand up for myself instead of withering and crying when he berates me.
I think you're right on both counts, and it's somewhere in between. If you want, re-read the section in DB on arguing, not engaging stuff. My next 2 cents- you can treat him politely and distantly, like you would an acquaintance who has no pull on you. You can choose to not react in hurt or anger- it's not good for either of you and I think you could use practice dis-engaging and stepping back- you've done it REALLY well a few times that I've seen and are perfectly capable of it! I don't think you need to show anger, but a very determined, calm "I am not going to discuss this with you when you are [yelling/berating/name-calling, etc]. When you are calmer and respectful, we can talk". It's not baiting, it's not reactive. It is your "party line" and you can stick to it. You have a way to tell him how you deserve to be treated, and it may be a little more "passive" than you're tempted to do, but it's the better way than yelling back. You will want to look back on this time with the highest integrity- you didn't always stoop to his level (but it's ok if you backslide, we all do!). Your S didn't observe you behaving in a disrespectful manner. And it's NOT letting him walk all over you to do this calmly and not get angry back. I think sometimes- maybe women esp- we think anger=power. That the louder, angrier person "wins". It's not necessarily true. The calm, logical, distanced person has much more leverage and strength, IMO, AND ends up feeling better and not regretting their behavior afterwards.
My H and I aren't very volatile at all, but I've had a few instances recently where I felt he was looking for a fight. You know what? The calmer and less engaged I became, the more ridiculous it looked - and it ended up going nowhere b/c I wouldn't engage. And we got along fine after that. Sure, I wanted to argue my position and get mad and be "right", but that never has worked for me with him, so I'm trying something new. He already knows how I feel about 99% of things anyway, based on past history- if he didn't listen or understand me before, I'm not expecting or trying to make him now- he's not in a frame of mind to do so, and neither is your H.
I think of the Tasmanian Devil (well, H never got that worked up, but I've experienced this with other people)- I'm sitting there watching them whirl themselves into a frenzy, getting faster and faster and more and more upset/angry, and I just sat there, observing, like "hmmm, this is interesting." You have much power if you are the distanced, calm, non-reactive one- they tire themselves out after awhile and look foolish. It doesn't make you look passive or weak, even though it might feel like that at first if you're used to yelling back- it makes you the strong one, the one who quietly refuses to accept poor treatment and leaves with her self-esteem intact.
So, Hope, remember this comes out of much love and caring for you. I'm torn up seeing how unhappy you are at times- and I think you have it in you to take back your self-esteem and create a happier place, with or without H, as painful as that is to hear right now. It's what I and a lot of us are needing to do right now, too.
I wish you strength and peace today and always- and please keep posting here- even if you backslide or whatever, you are not, repeat NOT disappointing us. We are here to support you no matter what.
((((extra hugs))))
-Alice
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
You need to NOT return any wrath or anger with your own. This is HIS thing, you need to let him see that you won't be a part of it. The way you do this is by having your script and leaving when he starts. You ALWAYS stay very cool and calm and have real regret in your voice when you say "I can't talk to you when you are like this. I hope we can work this out in the future but for now I have to ...." and then go get busy or leave. Have genuine warmth in your voice as you do this--a warm attitude with someone like this goes a long way.
Over in Infedelity this situation comes up a LOT. There is some fabulous insight over there--but they mostly believe the wayward S, since he can't engage you, will go back and engage the affair partner. Which of course helps destroy their little fantasy.
Makes absolute sense to me--do you think your H is going to change on his own?? The next person will be getting this treatment soon--that's what he does. But deep down he WANTS SOMEBODY to STOP HIM!
You have a young child--remember those tantrums? They are testing to see if they have parents that will be STRONG and not let them get away with things--that rules and boundaries ARE REAL. This gives the child a lot of confidence and security--it's NO different for your H!!
It has taken me way, way too long to see that *I* am as much to blame in my H's anger and rage as he is BECAUSE *I* let it continue. I am in a position of authority with him--I never realized this AT ALL. But it is true. He looks to me to be the adult.
It takes two. Is your H going to be strong and stop on his end? or are you? My money is NOT going to be on your H.lol.
I have a 15 year marriage of this. I've been doing it for 3 1/2 months. It's working. You've seen it, I've seen it. I nevr did this before when I was DBing so it's a completely new thing for me, but DBing HAS helped in that I know about GAL and 180s and all that.
Me personally--I used to be such an avoider in our R. Now I can't wait to go home and be around him and SHOW HIM in a consistent way that I am going to be different. It was really, really scary at first too--my H has followed me around the house with his fists clenched and his eyes bulging out of their sockets screaming at me.
It's getting better. The positives are small, I do have to look carefully for them, but they are there.
Did you see that my H is going to church with me Sunday?lol. From wanting a divorce in the a.m. to telling me he'll go to church with me in the afternoon. It's a roller coaster ride around here, that is FOR SURE!lol.
You do so much better than me. I know all this intellectually but I get stuck IRL> last night H was here and goes on and on raising his voice aobut how DISGUSTING the computer is, how when he used it is was NEVER THAT DISGUSTING and he has no idea WHAT I DO TO MAKE IT SO DISGUSTING and it went on and on...He starts lecturing me condescendingly about how to do better - I sat and said nothing because I was determined not to defend, last out, etc...but it was killing me inside...finally I started to get up and walk away and he raises his voice even louder "DONT WALK AWAY FROM ME! THAT IS RUDE!" I felt crushed. Anything I say or do makes it worse!
Then he yells at S "get to the table now~" and you have to understand it's not always what he says, it's how he says it, yelling, intense, hostile. I really react when he does this with S. He saw whatever look on my face and attacked me again "WHAT?! WHAT'S THAT LOOK?!?!" as if he really would hear me if I tell him.
Then weird things happen when he's here and looking for a fight. The glass plate broke in the microwave - another thing for him to laugh at me about and let me know how I can't take care of anything and how messed up I am.
It doesn't stop! He;s so aggressive. like you said, Red face, bulging eyes...
Script, walking away, all of it makes it worse and he doesn't see it.
He takes S to his house tonight. For the first time. I've been depressed all day, not getting out of bed.
