Okay, have just a minute to continue what I started this morning. BTW, one of the example "answers" I gave you was not the best in the world when I said to tell her, "I sure you would not be interested in my activities". I was in a hurry when I was writing that, but I hope you can think of something better.
As I told you in your thread over in WAW, you will not change her and not to expect her to work at this R. So, that means she will not put forth anything positive in MC or any other C for your M problems. Trust me, she will use that opportunity to cast all of her complaints about you and the M. You can get help for yourself, but I don't think trying to get her to agree to MC is a good idea. She would not be in the right frame of mind and it would probably cause more damage than good at this point.
Your objective is to become the best man you can possibly be. Improve yourself, as I told you over in the other thread. Instead of keeping her mind on the OM by trying to shut off her communication and fighting over him.....(which just keeps OM the center of thoughts), you focus on you getting a personal life without her in it. Yes, it will be hard at first, but everyone I have read who did that will come back and say that they did not realize how they had become shut off to everything except their M until they started GAL again. It is good for you and it will be good for her to see you GAL, becoming a lot more of an interesting person, attractive, charming, strong, etc.
Speaking of being strong......you continue to show self-respect and you do not take disrespect from her. This is where "boundaries" come into play. You decide what you cannot live with. You think of what would be "consequences" if those boundaries were broken. If your W disrespects you, what would be the consequences of that particular action? That is for you to decide, and depending on what the insult was......would determine the consequences. It is just like you would do with your children. If they do not follow rules....they have to deal with consequences, depending on the age of child and the what they did. I know from experience when you have teenagers, you better instill some boundaries and you better enforce those consequences or you are doomed for a life of misery! Enforcement is most important or you might as well chunk the whole deal.
You are learning not to be her "pushover" and that is great! She will continue to test you, so never let your guard down. Be prepared at all times. Now, this is important......do not argue with her. You make a statement (if necessary) and then shut up. You either get busy at something and do not reply to her trying to cause an argument, or you just give her a look, or if it gets too bad you can leave for an hour or so. I like the statement I've heard Puppy use, "Do you know how unattractive you are when you act like this"? Then turn around and leave her standing there. The point is to break yourself from trying to "explain" yourself. That is what you keep doing.....and it doesn't work. I understand b/c I am that kind of person also....but the more you say, the worse it makes the situation.
Just as teenagers get "power" over you whenever they get you upset and fussing with them, so does a WAW. Whenever you lose your cool and get into an arugment.....you have given her your power over the situation. That is why it is so important to stay calm and do not get trapped into one of her scenes. She will try to pull you into that and then say, "See, that is why we need to get a D b/c we don't get along".
Without getting into a big explaination of how she is the one screwing up, just point out that this was her choice. She needs to see that she is losing her H and the family as it once was. She needs to get an idea of what life without you would be. She will try to make it appear that you are the one that messed up the M, but she needs to realize that "she" is making the "choice" to break it up. You do this with your behavior and not by preaching to her.
If she comes at you with angry words, then say, "I'm sorry you feel that way". Then turn away. If you don't know what to say then shrug your shoulders. I'm trying to get you to stop explaining your side of the stitch, b/c it doesn't save the M. She has her "case" already mapped out and she just wants to prove to you that it's over. See what I mean?
So, work at staying busy and going out. Be sure you look really good when you go out. Put on some new cologne. Act as if you are excited about going out. You may just go to the mall and walk around or something, but she will wonder why you look so good, smell good, and act happy.
There's your roadmap, Dan. ^ I pray you'll be smart -- and strong -- enough to follow it.
I am blown away by the wisdom on this board. I also think its sad that this is so common the people have become "masters" in it. Excellent advice by Sandi. The more of these sitautions I read, the more insight I gain. I'm grateful.
Everyone, I appreciate your help, please don't give up on me. I am trying to take your advice and apply it to my life. I really do need all the help I can get if you can't already tell. I want to GAL. I want her to see what life would be like without me and realize she is going down the wrong path. I was thinking about taking my son hiking this weekend, just me and him. I know it will bother her very much if I take the kids from her to go do something. I've tried this in the past and she always wants to be in the family outings. I want her to spend some time by herself knowing our kids may not be there all the time like she has it now. Her weak point as is mine is our kids, we love them dearly, although I value our family much more than her it seems and know how devastating it would be to our kids if we get divorced. She sees no value in family right now, or she is trying to convince herself she doesn't need me. I really think she would have a tremdously hard time making ends meet on her own. She's never truly lived on her own, paid her own bills, had her own place etc...let alone trying to pay for those type of things with kids involved. I thought it was always good she could stay home with the kids, but she doesn't realize how good she really does have it without having the burden of taking care of anything related to financials.
Sandi, I am listening to what you are telling me. I am going to stop talking to her and explaining myself everytime anything comes up. This is not working and you are spot on. I will be civil to her, but I'm not going to reach out and try to get into a deep conversation about what is going on all the time.
As far as marriage counseling/coaching, I knew that was a solo thing for me and she wouldn't participate, and I haven't asked her to. I only asked her to read a few chapters in Divorce Remedy a few months back when I first learned of the affair and she absolutely refused. I kept reading and she thought I was stupid for trying to "get the answers" out of a book. She says she doesn't need a book to tell her how she feels. I felt quite the opposite after I read the book. I learned techniques here and there about how to comunicate better, do's and don't's, what to do during an affair. My problem I'm struggling with is once confronted about the affair, I thought my wife would feel ashamed and want to stop knowing she was caught, but it's like it's fueling her fire and she wants to do it more now that I know what is going on and I'm trying to prevent it.
I'm not a lost cause, I'm just really struggling on how to get my life back in order and I'm struggling even more because my kids are involved.
Dan
M 34 W 31 S 8 D 3 W affair 3 seperate times with same ex since Feb 2010 I said I wanted divorced April 2012
"Considering where things are right now with our marriage, I have decided that it's best for each of us to start spending some time with just ourselves and the kids, to better transition them to what might be coming. I understand you'll probably want to do the same, and that's fine."
I failed miserably on Wednesday. I made the mistake of arguing with my wife about pretty much everything. I couldn't hold my emotions back any longer.
It started out with my wife making an attempt to move forward with me saying she wanted to stop talking to her ex and wanted to take baby steps with me, but she felt confused. She wanted to know if it was too late for us, and I told her it's never too late to work on our family and always too soon to give up. Maybe it's my nature, but I asked her if she could be honest with me about everything because as damaged as we are right now, dishonesty will only push us apart farther. She said she would "try". I couldn't accept that because I knew she had purchased a prepaid phone that day. I told her having a prepaid phone was like an alcoholic keeping beer in the refrigerator and saying they weren't going to drink it. It was an unnecessary temptation that was not needed in our lives. The conversation did not go well from there and she retracted wanting to mend things with me and going out on a date with me taking baby steps. I knew I had made a mistake, but couldn't help resenting her for having the prepaid cell phone.
When I got home, tension was high. We ate dinner without saying much to each other, mainly focusing on talking to the kids. After dinner, she said something about what I was going to do about the Jamaica vacation. I got pretty testy with her and adamantly let her know I was going with or without her and no way was I letting that money go to waste because of what she did. I told her she was the one doing this to us and I wasn't canceling the much needed vacation because she decided to have an affair on me. It got ugly fast, divorce was brought up several times, unfortunately in front of the kids which I hate myself for doing. I tried to walk away, she wouldn't let me leave the kitchen, I didn't react well and I wish I had it to do all over again. I was trying to get myself to stop, but I resent her so much over this damn affair I wanted to speak my peace. I told her I was done financing her affair and she let me know she had already talked to a lawyer and she's entitled to half of everything and will most likely get the kids. At that point, the conversation was over even though our mouths were still moving because it was just anger and raw emotion with neither of us making much sense. I went upstairs, cooled off for a while, went outside and then left for a few hours without telling her where I was going. She texted me several times asking where I was, but I didn't tell her, and instead said what I wanted to say in a more cool calm and collected manner versus the pissing match we had. While I was gone, I was texting her sister letting her know it probably was over and let her know what happened. She said she was going to try and talk to her, which she did. I came home around 10 pm, played connect four with my son and she came in and played with us too and she actually was very cordial to me even though we had a major blowout. I called my Employee Assistance Program and signed up for some marriage counseling, I plan to go to on my own, I have an appointment on Tuesday.
Ok, so Wednesday was a bust, everyone can give me a hard time but I stopped being a push over and let her know she could basically kiss my ass, right or wrong. I didn't do like I probably should have done, which was NEVER ARGUE WITH THE WAW but I did. So Thursday rolled around and after not getting much sleep and taking the day off from work again, I had every intention of going hiking on my own for the day to give her some space like she had asked for last week. She was very nice to me, and didn't want me to go saying I should stay and face our problems with each other and not take it to the extreme by leaving, which was weird hearing that from her because that is exactly what I have been telling her about her damn affair that she should be talking to me about our problems instead of talking to her ex about all her issues in her life. She wanted me to go shopping with her for a baby shower gift this weekend. I checked her text messages and seen she had started talking to her sister again which was a good thing because she is on my side about all this affair mess. If she is talking to her sister, then maybe she is opening up to realize she is screwing up. I also seen she is talking/texting her mom again which is another good sign. So instead of going hiking on my own, which I was actually looking forward to some me time away from everything, I went with her shopping for a baby shower gift. It was quite nice actually, she was very pleasant to me. We took our son to school, we got ice cream with our daughter, and then later I took the kids (without her) to go for a hike and to the park and gave her some time to her self. She acted like she didn't like I was taking the kids to go play, but I wasn't backing down, I was taking them to go do something just me and them and she stayed home and exercised. When I got home, she asked me if I wanted to go to the baby shower with her on Saturday and she said she wanted to go on our date we had talked about on Wednesday before we had our blowout. She said she would like to start over, so we are going to where we had our very first date...to new beginnings I hope!! =)
Today (Friday), nothing major happened, all seemed well no arguments or anything. I've got to think that if she's opening up to her family again, it's got to be a good sign that she's coming back from the "dark side". She started talking about our Jamaica trip today and acted like she was ready to go again and went to the tanning bed today so she can get ready for the trip. I'm trying to play it cool and not rock the boat and not want everything right away. My wife said that's my problem, I want everything right away which I probably do. I want my wife and my life back and I want it now, but I realize it takes time and I need to shut my mouth and just go slow with her and show her I'm the man for her.
Call me a snoop or spy or whatever, but through my keylogger I was able to figure out her prepaid phone login to see the activity. I know, it's underhanded and wrong but I can't help it...anyway I seen she didn't text him at all today and only a few times yesterday hopefully to end it like she is telling me she wants to.
I don't know if I'm making the wrong or right moves, the last few days have been very confusing. I seriously thought our marriage was dead for sure on Wednesday after that nasty argument, and in front of the kids no less which I hate. But...maybe that argument shook things up some, I don't know. All I know is we have went from one extreme to the other in no time what so ever, but one more day my family is together as one is a good thing, so I'm hanging on to hope that there is hope. She acts like she wants to take baby steps with me, this date thing was her idea and I'm going along with it. Hopefully the text messaging on her prepaid phone subsides although I'm going to try and refrain from saying anything about it because if I do, she'll retract again saying I'm spying on her and controlling her which makes her want to leave me even more.
I'm sure you guys will have a hey day with all the mistakes I probably made, but she actually has reached out to me and wants to try and mend things, which in my mind is a huge step. So even though since the last time I've last posted, I've hit some of the lowest lows, I'm riding a small high right now. Now I just pray I make the right moves in the future not to push her away...
Dan
M 34 W 31 S 8 D 3 W affair 3 seperate times with same ex since Feb 2010 I said I wanted divorced April 2012
Well, unless there are other men at that baby shower, I don't recommend that you go. That is, unless you like sandwiches with no crusts, iced tea, and oohing and ahhing over baby blankets, strollers and teddy bears. I hate those things, and I'm a mother.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with you standing up for the marriage and telling her that she was wrong. And it sounds like maybe she cooled down enough to hear at least part of what you said. Listening is a skill. You are right when you describe the argument as anger, raw emotion, and moving mouths. In the future, say your peace as calmly as you can, listen to her side and then go take the walk. Don't let it go on too long.
I think I mentioned Retrouvaille to you before. If she is interested in working on the marriage, that is the way to go. They will lead you through it. You do all the work, but it is like Hansel and Gretel following a path of crumbs through the forest. Without someone to guide you, working on the marriage by yourselves is just a minefield. My H and I thought we could do it, and then we had an argument that was a public embarrassment. That's when we realized that we were really in the crapper and needed help. And we booked our Retrouvaille weekend. We have literally been happy ever since.
Well I'm starting to be convinced that my wife is a compulsive liar. We went out on our date Saturday night, had a nice dinner and drinks and talked quite a bit. She told me how talking to her ex was wrong and she's done with it. I want to believe my wife so bad, but she just keeps lying to me. The prepaid phone texting started up again when the OM texted her at 4am last night, and she promptly replied back and forth with him all day today. Every chance she gets away from me she is texting this jack ass. My wife is so goddam addicted to talking to this guy I don't even know what to do. What I hate is she walks around here like nothing is going on, after she said she's done talking to him and I know differently. I've screwed up over and over when I confront her, so I guess I just watch it happen. I hate being lied to like this. I hate that my children's mother is such a damn liar now.
When I read Divorce Remedy, it was stated quite often that affairs only 6 months. But what about affairs where the spouse won't quit talking to OM? I feel like I'm constantly on trial and if we have any kind of disagreement, then it makes her want to go talk to this guy more and more.
M 34 W 31 S 8 D 3 W affair 3 seperate times with same ex since Feb 2010 I said I wanted divorced April 2012
Okay, have just a minute to continue what I started this morning. BTW, one of the example "answers" I gave you was not the best in the world when I said to tell her, "I sure you would not be interested in my activities". I was in a hurry when I was writing that, but I hope you can think of something better.
As I told you in your thread over in WAW, you will not change her and not to expect her to work at this R. So, that means she will not put forth anything positive in MC or any other C for your M problems. Trust me, she will use that opportunity to cast all of her complaints about you and the M. You can get help for yourself, but I don't think trying to get her to agree to MC is a good idea. She would not be in the right frame of mind and it would probably cause more damage than good at this point.
Your objective is to become the best man you can possibly be. Improve yourself, as I told you over in the other thread. Instead of keeping her mind on the OM by trying to shut off her communication and fighting over him.....(which just keeps OM the center of thoughts), you focus on you getting a personal life without her in it. Yes, it will be hard at first, but everyone I have read who did that will come back and say that they did not realize how they had become shut off to everything except their M until they started GAL again. It is good for you and it will be good for her to see you GAL, becoming a lot more of an interesting person, attractive, charming, strong, etc.
Speaking of being strong......you continue to show self-respect and you do not take disrespect from her. This is where "boundaries" come into play. You decide what you cannot live with. You think of what would be "consequences" if those boundaries were broken. If your W disrespects you, what would be the consequences of that particular action? That is for you to decide, and depending on what the insult was......would determine the consequences. It is just like you would do with your children. If they do not follow rules....they have to deal with consequences, depending on the age of child and the what they did. I know from experience when you have teenagers, you better instill some boundaries and you better enforce those consequences or you are doomed for a life of misery! Enforcement is most important or you might as well chunk the whole deal.
You are learning not to be her "pushover" and that is great! She will continue to test you, so never let your guard down. Be prepared at all times. Now, this is important......do not argue with her. You make a statement (if necessary) and then shut up. You either get busy at something and do not reply to her trying to cause an argument, or you just give her a look, or if it gets too bad you can leave for an hour or so. I like the statement I've heard Puppy use, "Do you know how unattractive you are when you act like this"? Then turn around and leave her standing there. The point is to break yourself from trying to "explain" yourself. That is what you keep doing.....and it doesn't work. I understand b/c I am that kind of person also....but the more you say, the worse it makes the situation.
Just as teenagers get "power" over you whenever they get you upset and fussing with them, so does a WAW. Whenever you lose your cool and get into an arugment.....you have given her your power over the situation. That is why it is so important to stay calm and do not get trapped into one of her scenes. She will try to pull you into that and then say, "See, that is why we need to get a D b/c we don't get along".
Without getting into a big explaination of how she is the one screwing up, just point out that this was her choice. She needs to see that she is losing her H and the family as it once was. She needs to get an idea of what life without you would be. She will try to make it appear that you are the one that messed up the M, but she needs to realize that "she" is making the "choice" to break it up. You do this with your behavior and not by preaching to her.
If she comes at you with angry words, then say, "I'm sorry you feel that way". Then turn away. If you don't know what to say then shrug your shoulders. I'm trying to get you to stop explaining your side of the stitch, b/c it doesn't save the M. She has her "case" already mapped out and she just wants to prove to you that it's over. See what I mean?
So, work at staying busy and going out. Be sure you look really good when you go out. Put on some new cologne. Act as if you are excited about going out. You may just go to the mall and walk around or something, but she will wonder why you look so good, smell good, and act happy.
I go to see my counselor tomorrow for the first time. I've never been to a counselor before, so it will be new and probably uneasy at first talking about everything I have going on right now face to face with someone I don't know. I still keep in the back of my mind that I should call one of these coaches because I want to focus on the future and how to move forward and I keep reading that counselors focus on the past for a long time. I want action, but it's a free benefit through work, so I'm willing to try some sessions and see what happens. Maybe this counselor is a subscriber to the divorce busting theory. I am going to take the book with me and talk to the counselor about what I've read and everything I've been reading from you guys on this discussion board...thanks a million by the way. I know I'm not a success story, but we are having good days and my family is still one and that is a positive in my mind.
Things have been going well with me and my wife last few days. We've been been very nice to each other and she texted me this morning that she had a very nice time with me this past weekend. I told her I enjoyed the weekend as well, and I added a little twist by telling her I was so glad she told me she was done talking to OM for our kids benefit even though I know she is still texting him. Tried to add a side of hidden guilt to her plate seeing how she said she wanted to work on "us" and she was going to stop talking to OM for our kids sake. I don't know, the texts are not like they were, it's not all night long and every opportunity she has. When it was on her old cell phone, it was every waking moment she was texting. Now that she has this prepaid phone it doesn't seem as frequent. Maybe it's because she is trying to hide it more from me. She told me "baby steps", and she wants to restore what we have lost. I agree with this, I don't want to jump right in (I do, but I don't. I want my wife back, but I want to regain our trust first) because it could crash and burn just as fast as it started. I want to believe my wife and I geniunely don't think she is just trying to set me up for disappointment, but I do think she is addicted to a drug otherwise known as an emotional affair and she's trying to kick the habit. I don't push for information, I just go with the flow and be happy that things seem pretty nice and not much tension at this point in time.
I've been down this path before though back in March. Things were going great, she was wearing her wedding ring and we were going out on dates, and then one weekend she went out and the texting started up like crazy and our marriage spiraled out of control fast. So, with that being said, even though it seems nice now, it could go south fast again. I want to have my ducks in a row so she won't want to leave the relationship to some other guy and hope she realizes that her family is what's best for her, I am what is best for her and I always want to be here for her.
I will update after I meet with the counselor tomorrow, wish me luck and thanks for sticking by my side.
Dan
M 34 W 31 S 8 D 3 W affair 3 seperate times with same ex since Feb 2010 I said I wanted divorced April 2012
