While it is hard to see the future. Impossible in many aspects.
Quote:
What's worse is that I am in a situation that many people would say demands control
Those people wouln't be DBing.
Those people would likely be the ones seeking divorce. Being in control is very important to these people...even if it is reactionary knee jerk response type of control. : )
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Indeed. That's JUST the quote I needed today. I am REALLY struggling today with the DB take on things. I need to take OT's advice and re-read some things I think. It's like the dark side has control over me and I can't break free from the exact "knee jerk" response patterns you spoke of. I freaking HATE it, and it keeps happening. I am playing the victim role over and over again and it's getting old. Suppose it's up to me to stop that. I am stuck in the classic thought pattern of "It's not fair that I should have to do all this work on me while she just goes on doing whatever it is she's doing without regard to how it may affect me, etc, etc, etc." How many hundreds of times did I read that from others and advise against allowing it to dominate their thought processes. It's just so hard to follow my own advice.
UPDATE: She went out again last night. She stayed in touch all night via text but didn't really provide details of where she went as usual. She said she was with her "group" again. Once again, I had a mini-meltdown about the whole sitch before she went out. It's my pattern. The same old stupid (in my opinion) trying to talk her into realizing why things suck so much because of her behavior. Not helpful at all yet I keep doing it. Square one keeps appearing under my feet every time I do that I think.
The main thing I railed about was her not wearing her wedding ring lately. It would be so much easier to DB/not get upset if she'd just admit to not wanting to wear them but she doesn't. She claims she forgets. BS. She remembers to wear other jewelery. I even went so far as to put her rings with the other jewelery yesterday so she would not "forget" and somehow they didn't make it onto her finger. I called her on it and she once again dismissed my concern about it.
Last night when she was getting ready to leave, I brought the rings to her, and she rolled her eyes but made a show of wearing them... until she got home later... and they were off again.
I think this is all actually made worse by the fact that I've been here before. Not because it necessarily brings up bad old memories/feelings but because I spent SO long working to understand myself, and yes, observing my W in an affair, that I have very strong opinions about what's what. I know all these signs point to another affair but so many other things shout that it's not, or at least not the same as last time.
The single most confusing thing is her continuing affection towards me, our increased SL and overall "normalcy" in our marriage other than the specific issues surrounding these nights out. If it were not for the rings issue, I would say she may be 100% right in that most of this is my paranoia (justified I think). But it's that issue, and the dishonesty (getting a little better in that dept) that keep me from thinking that I am just paranoid.
Also playing into things is the fact that I THINK I know my W enough to know that she's just not that good a liar or politician. She tends to be really bad at political situations and I can't fathom that she's been able to maintain a unwavering denial/dismissal of my concerns over the sitch if it's a total lie. She's NEVER been able to do something like that for more than a day or so, let alone months. I know a lot of people say their spouse becomes someone they don't know in these sitches, but the fact is that I know my W both in and out of this kind of sitch (from the previous A) and she's not fitting the profile. She IS still the same woman in every aspect of our lives other than this going out a night or two a week. Anytime she's not is when I bring up R stuff, or get upset about things. So while it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and all that, I'm looking at a dove and my eyes are convincing me that at least I need to consider the possibility that it's not a duck.
So here I sit, fully realizing that IF I can really DB, work on myself and control those knee jerk reactions, my marriage would look and feel good (no, I am not so stupid or in denial to think that the concerns/sitch would just go away). Basically, if I just stop trying to control THAT situation, things would likely be "fine" or better between W and I. Though every time I think about that, and try to imagine a scenario where there really is NO affair (or not a PA at least), or at least a scenario where I drop all pretense of control, I can't help but get terrified of the end of the rainbow being a pot of humiliation. I can't help imagining that I am being played expertly and in the end, everything will pan out to be worse case scenario. PA, D, etc. I feel like everyone else here going through a possible, or confirmed spouse in an affair, like I am LETTING it happen and thus somehow responsible for it progressing, etc. Funny since I am one of the few who actually was able to DB through an affair and exactly what was supposed to happen, the affair ending and my changes helping repair the marriage, DID happen. Wonder why I can't seem to realize that path is the one for me and DO what I need to do. I DO believe that it would work again but it's the damn fear ruling me now.
I guess in typing that, I realize that while I can set some boundaries, in the end, I fully believe that what will be, will be. My attempt to CONTROL anything other than myself may only make things worse I suppose.
My next step will be to go back and read some more DB. I need to get back to my roots and re-learn how to exhibit some self control before I manage to just muddy the waters so much that neither my W or I can see the point in swimming anymore.
I am realizing that I act like an ass when my W goes out, like an ass when she gets home and an ass at random other times. I realize that I CANNOT control my W and thus need to just focus on controlling myself. Boundaries are fine but I just need to stop focusing on everything external and REALLY look hard at myself. I am not to blame but I am playing a part. That needs to stop.
I am focusing way too much in trying to figure everything else out but ME.
There, that's more concise. Read above for more context
Really? I guess so OT. I can see that it come across as that I suppose.
So if I "set boundaries" and they are crossed, then what? Clearly she's intent on not respecting those boundaries. I've expressed what they are and yet I either have not the strength, conviction or balls to follow through with whatever my reaction to that should be. I guess I am following (or trying to) in my own footsteps when it comes to all that. Focus on self, detachment, GAL and "as if". Nowhere in all that were boundaries. Clearly I didn't have any in the previous sitch.
Sure, I have said I will not accept the dishonesty but then what. She's still been dishonest. Now what? I stop "normal" relations?
I know boundaries are all about ME and what I am willing to accept but they feel a lot like ultimatums to me.
As I said, I actually did accept a lot of what's going on now in this (alleged) A during the the last A. Of course one could say my acceptance contributes to her having another one. Maybe. Dunno.
Maybe boundaries are my true struggle. Maybe I am too weak right now (or always) to stand up for myself and draw lines. I don't see myself as terribly weak but maybe...
OT, right now I am sticking to my gut and giving some attention inward. I am spending way too much time obsessing over her, her behavior and what my response should be to it.
To me, not really the point right now. Maybe it should be.
We have a big weekend working together coming up. I need to get through that and then maybe it's time to start looking at things from a different perspective.
As I alluded to, W and I HAVE to work together this weekend. That doesn't happen very often but it is tomorrow and thus I can't really rock the boat right now. Conflict between us will affect our business and this is to important to risk that.
I think that's my main motivation for all the "inward looking" and all that. There are a ton of things I want to say, boundaries I want to talk about, etc but right now, today, is not the time.
Trust me, it's all I can do to adhere to that. I have typed 2 text messages and an email that I deleted before sending, spelling out just what's what to me. I WANT to do SOMETHING. Probably the wrong thing (more ranting and less calm boundary setting). Today, I NEED to focus on me because otherwise I can mess up more than just our R for the weekend. I don't trust myself to do otherwise.
Really? I guess so OT. I can see that it come across as that I suppose.
So if I "set boundaries" and they are crossed, then what? Clearly she's intent on not respecting those boundaries. I've expressed what they are and yet I either have not the strength, conviction or balls to follow through with whatever my reaction to that should be. I guess I am following (or trying to) in my own footsteps when it comes to all that. Focus on self, detachment, GAL and "as if". Nowhere in all that were boundaries. Clearly I didn't have any in the previous sitch.
Sure, I have said I will not accept the dishonesty but then what. She's still been dishonest. Now what? I stop "normal" relations?
I know boundaries are all about ME and what I am willing to accept but they feel a lot like ultimatums to me.
GH,
Boundaries without consequences aren't boundaries at all -- they are more like "geeIwishyouwouldn'ts." Only YOU can decide what they are, but I advocate people to make it a VERY short list, one that goes to your very core beliefs. I call them "Boundaries of Personal Integrity," and they should be the few things that you simply cannot abide.
It may be "I cannot live in an open marriage," or "I cannot feel safe in a marriage where my wife isn't honest with me," or something else, but it should be the things that -- if she chooses to violate them, unrepentantly, and things go south for you, that you would say to yourself "You know, I'm horribly sad and upset that this didn't work out, but I couldn't have abided that anyway."
Does that make sense?
They feel like ultimatums to you because you're poor at setting (and enforcing boundaries), and so you nibble around the edges, and come across as accusatory, controlling and an ass. I know, because I'M THE EXACT SAME WAY. There's a difference between "ultimatums" and "boundaries."
From my personal archives:
The best way I can answer that is that if you make it about HER, they will come across as "demands" and being "controlling."
If you make them about YOU, and what YOU need, then they are "boundaries of personal integrity."
Example:
"I forbid you to see OM" = CONTROLLING
"I can't live in an open marriage" = BOUNDARY
"You need to check in with me every day, and give me your cellphone bill!" = CONTROLLING
"In order to feel safe in our reconciliation, considering your recent affair, I need to know that you're no longer talking or texting him by having the cellphone bill come to me for awhile" = BOUNDARY
"You can't talk to me that way!" = CONTROLLING
"I like ME too much to allow myself to be spoken to so disrespectfully. Please come back when you've calmed down, and we can talk further." = BOUNDARY
Make sense?
It's also HOW you say it. It should come across as something you HATE to have to even ASK for, and that you'll COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND if she doesn't feel she can do it, but hey -- this is what I need right now. Let me know."
Yea. Both of your are right. Ok, I will wade into the "gray" starting Sunday. Today I am 100% focused on "as-if" and it's going to have to do. W is feeling sick and that REALLY sucks for the kind of day we'll have tomorrow. I am being nice H and encouraging her to rest, etc. That's as opposed to laying into her, calmly setting boundaries or otherwise acting jerky...er... gray-ish. Again, my mantra is "not today" and no, that's not an excuse, it's reality. Too much at stake to risk the kinds of reactions both of us may have to a venture to a-hole land or even a dip into gray-land.
Thanks! That did help. I am getting MUCH better at just walking away before I engage her in a bad R talk. I know I alluded to not doing well with that but I have decided that one boundary I have that I am able to enforce is that I will not just stand there and be berated, nor will I berate her. While I have slipped (hence mini-blow-ups), I do usually force myself to walk away before things escalate.
I will do my best to stop nibbling. I really love your characterization of boundaries as "geeIwishyouwouldn'ts."
I am not too sure that's a universally accepted definition but it's one I like and that may help me start to embrace them more. I get so hung up on the reactions and less on the setting and such. I will work on the "short list" when I get time.
There's a difference between "ultimatums" and "boundaries."