Possible EA - Need Advice

[MelodyJ]

I think there's a possibility my husband is having an EA (or maybe even a PA) with a coworker and could really use some advice about how to move forward.
Here is what I know about the situtation:
-Over a year ago, he lied to me about working late and was actually at her house (she lived with her parents at the time) "playing video games". He agreed that he should not have lied and that it looked bad, but said that he just needed a break (we were in the middle of an intense remodel while both working full time and having a small child). He thought I'd never agree to the break so he lied to me, so he said
-After I got back from a work trip, I found a facebook convo in which he was asking her brother what kind of candy she liked so that he could put together a "get well" basket for her. She had recently had a surgery, so he wanted to do something nice, he told me when confronted. Said since she's a superior at work, he needed to have her on his side for promotion related issues.
-Everything died down for awhile – both of our jobs were in the “off season” and we had a lot of time to invest in our fam. She didn’t seem to be an issue during this time.
-Fast forward to the next intensive work season for us – he’s grown distant, talks to her a lot, comes home late from work (usual in his line of work, but it’s worse than ever this year), has her over to house while I’m working on a day he was home with ill daughter, logs more cell phone minutes with her than with me (many on his drive home from a work social event), forwards an email of mine on to her (when I was expressing dislike at his going to a work social event).
-Doesn’t seem to care that it bothers me that he spend time with her. Claims she is his “best friend” and why can’t I just look at it like she’s a guy? They have so much in common . . . it’s wrong for me to keep them from being friends. Claims that our problems are separate from what he has going on with her.
-I went out of town recently and while I was gone he texted me to see if it was okay that she come over. I said I wasn’t comfortable with that. Upon return, I found out that the day before he requested to have her over, he met her at a public place with our daughter. She was on her lunch break at work and “just happened” to be in the same area. I also found a fast food restaurant receipt from a night I was gone. The time on the receipt was after my daughter’s bed time, so I knew my husband couldn’t have been the one to go through the drive thru. He was secretive about it at first, but then claims she AND her boyfriend were “going out” in our neighborhood and dropped food by for him because he was hungry. Well, our house was a good 20 mins out of the way. I, of course, flipped out. When I did things escalated and he essentially said he wasn’t sure if we are compatible and if he still loves me.
Long story short . . . it’s hard for me to sift out truth from lie here, and I don’t know how to proceed with my husband. I want to save my marriage and I know I am not blameless myself. But, I don’t know if I should be treating this as an affair or if I should be just DBing and DRing and hoping for the best.
Thank you.

[zengreentea]

I feel your pain. My H is having an EA & PA with a coworker. I would say he is definately having an EA. My H does the same thing, more minutes on the cell with OW than me. I don't get it. What is the hardest is that you can't tell the truth from lies. And we overestimate our ability to know when our partner is telling the truth. You start to feel crazy in the head.

Hang in there.

[MelodyJ]

Thank you for your reply. It's good to know I'm not the only one who has ever gone through this.
The hardest part I have with the coworker issue is that it's hard to draw boundaries. She's at his place of work - she goes to work social events. And, my husband lies about his contact with her. So, how to I draw a boundary without insisting he quit his job? And, is insisting he quit his job extreme when there's no concrete evidence of a PA and he's debating whether or not it's an EA?

[BWP]

This is an EA, feel free to read my sitch. All the signs are there, the pros will tell you to gather your intel before doing anything.

My own experience of trying to DB in the middle of this is that you won't have much luck. The EA is the issue at the moment. I'm no expert though so hang in there for some guidance.

[newmama]

Melody, I am living the reality of what happens when the EA doesn't end soon enough- without going on and on, my WH started out with his OW in the same way yours is (Just friends, coworkers, lots of time on phone and spent time together). I was not forceful enough because I wanted to believe he was just friends with her and I didn't feel threatened because 1) he loved me 2)ewww--she was too trashy for him (SO I THOUGHT) but eventually it was getting to be too much and he was acting distant from me. I was uncomfortable and told him to stop but he didn't.

I really think that I should have given him an ultimatum then and there- now I know you are smart to not just take someone's advice blindly so I will continue-

I should have said something like: "H, please hear me. I have asked you to endyour friendship with &^%$# and you haven't. I feel it is disrespectful to me for you to have this friendship with her. I am your wife and you should be spending that time with me. I am smart enough to see that an emotional attachment will or has developed. This is a threat to our marriage. As your wife, you should only have an emotional attachment to me. Imagine if I started hanging out with Bob (a coworker) and spent as much time with him as you are with her. Would that be acceptable to you? So because I am so serious about this, if you do not agree to end this friendship with her, then I will need some space to figure out if I want to stay married to you and I will be moving out for awhile in order to do so."

OK I get that it is complicated and there are obstacles. But seriously, Melody, IT IS A SERIOUS THREAT TO YOUR MARRIAGE. SO it takes a very STRONG AND serious response. In my case, it had gone on underground after WH said it was over on 1/4/10. I had not discovered my resources to prepare and I was pregnant so I freaked out and said how scared I was and afraid to raise the baby alone and did alllll the wrong things. I did say HER OR ME! but was not strong and confident.

check out marriagebuilders.com for some free info about handling EAs as well.

Gathering intel will DEFINITELY help you because he will say stuff like you are being insecure, jealous, ridiculous, don't you believe that he loves you? how can you not trust him? etc.

Keep posting! And use your head, not your heart, right now. And stay calm and do not beg or cry or plead.

[zengreentea]

Melody

Newmamma knows what she is talking about. I too did not take a strong stand. In hindsight, I should have given him an ultimatium and moved on with my life. But I didn't and over a year later it is still going on. Save yourself some pain. I am learning that an EA won't just end.

Be strong. I'm trying to be.

[MelodyJ]

Thank you both for your advice. Yes, I think an ultimatum is in our future.
So, can someone help me with how to deal with the coworker issue and what a reasonable ultimatum would like in this situation? Given that he works with her, he’d almost have to quit his job in order not to spend time with her on a regular basis.
What if I issue an ultimatum and he swears he won't see her/hang out with her anymore. How will I know? He only uses his work computer. He uses blackberry messenger and gmail chat to talk to her because those doesn't leave an electronic trail. They are on some of the same jobs at work, so how will I know the difference between legitimate work biz and socializing with her? If there is a work social event - someone's b-day, etc., and she is going to be there - is that okay? Is it okay if he goes to lunch with her when they are with othe people too? Where is the line? And how would I ever trust given the history of covering things up?
As far as intel goes - I am currently having a hard time gathering intel because I have blown it in the past and he knows I snoop. I made the mistake of confronting after some of my intel finds, so now he leaves his work computer password protected and in the car trunk. He is careful to close out all instant messages on his phone before he comes in the house. He diligently deletes from his cell phone all calls, texts, and emails from her. I only know this because the one time he accidentally left his computer open one night I found emails that were not in the cell phone so I know he’s covering tracks. And of course, when confronted about covering tracks he claims that it’s because I go crazy over “nothing.” He wouldn’t have to cover his tracks if his wife was understanding . . .
The one piece of information I have that he does not know I have is access to the phone records. He might figure that I can access the phone records, but I don’t think he knows that I have downloaded Excel files of all call logs for the past year, sorted them to count minutes to her vs. me, and tracked the trend over the past 9 mos. I can also see the times he’s called her and on 3+ occasions I can see that he called her while he was driving home from various nights out. Some of those nights he told me he was hanging out with non-work friends and so she shouldn’t have been around. So, even if he wasn’t with her, he’s drunk dialing her on the way home? Yuck.
The one thing he has on his side is that there is no missing $$$. If he’s taking her anywhere, she’s paying because I can access all of the accounts online and I check them often. But of course he knows that I do the finances so he would know to cover his tracks there too.
I can’t say I trust the working late 100%. His busy season was worse and is dragging on longer than expected. He says it’s because he’s trying to get a promotion; I worry he’s not really logging all of the hours he’s gone. And even if I could get a hold of his billable hour counts, I know that in his profession it is common to log more hours than billed. I’ve thought of driving by his work at night, but I’d have to put my daughter in the car and risk that he’d recognize the car. She might tell him we went; he might see me. And I might get all the way there (30 mins away) only to find his car in the parking garage, which would ultimately mean nothing because she could have driven away from the office and left his car there just in case. My mom says I should hire a PI, but I couldn’t cover the cost trail.
I hate that I am even thinking like a detective myself. It feels dirty and wrong when I’m supposed to have a marriage of TRUST!

[zengreentea]

That is a great question. How do you ever know when they work together? It sounds like they are on the same level as co workers. Mine was the OW as his assistant. The company moved OW to a different department but on the same floor. You could expose this to the company HR. Most companies don't like this sort of stuff as it hurts moral. Allen could give you more insight on exposure. I live in a place where it is six degrees of separation on steroids. Must be very careful.

[newmama]

I replied to sections using red text but switched to black text at the end---I highlighted sections in blue that I responded to!


[quote]So, can someone help me with how to deal with the coworker issue and what a reasonable ultimatum would like in this situation? Given that he works with her, he’d almost have to quit his job in order not to spend time with her on a regular basis.

Yes this is best. Other options include changing work groups, transferring, changing schedules. But I get that there are complications. Just sayin'.

What if I issue an ultimatum and he swears he won't see her/hang out with her anymore. How will I know? He only uses his work computer. He uses blackberry messenger and gmail chat to talk to her because those doesn't leave an electronic trail.

One idea is that you install a keylogger on his work computer (does he bring it home?). I think some tech savvy folks on this forum can possibly help you better with the messenger and gmail chat issue. But let me ask something- do you mean he talks to her for all issues using those methods?

They are on some of the same jobs at work, so how will I know the difference between legitimate work biz and socializing with her?

One idea is to ask him for his work calendar-access to his appointments etc and who will be there and how long each will take. Then ask him to be available via text or phone at the end of each so you can call and check up(i.e. 8 a.m. appointment lasts until 10. back at desk by 10)

Yes, he could lie. But you will have other clues as to whether he is lying-more on that later. Still, just giving you his calendar is a start.

I also highly recommend showing up at his work unannounced (you tell him that you will have the right to show up unexpected to help him earn his trust with you but you might also show up with coffee or lunch.)

I wish you could have a "mole" on your side- a spy to let you know!

If there is a work social event - someone's b-day, etc., and she is going to be there - is that okay?

Is it okay if he goes to lunch with her when they are with othe people too? Where is the line?

This is very tough BUT if she is there, he has to find an excuse NOT TO GO. He agrees to answer any and every question you have and tell you someone that you could verify with.Now this sucks but for me, WH said he told his co worker friends that we were having problems and that he had to end his friendship with OW so he couldn't join them if she were there. I NEVER DOUBLE CHECKED THIS WITH ANY OF THEM! DUMB OF ME!

And how would I ever trust given the history of covering things up?

He earns your trust back by doing the things you ask him to. Being honest when she is there or tries to talk to him. Is an OPEN BOOK. And that is the million dollar question too- how will we ever trust again? slowly with time.

As far as intel goes - I am currently having a hard time gathering intel because I have blown it in the past and he knows I snoop. I made the mistake of confronting after some of my intel finds, so now he leaves his work computer password protected and in the car trunk.

NOPE- you get access to his computer. You get his password. Part of the deal.

He is careful to close out all instant messages on his phone before he comes in the house. He diligently deletes from his cell phone all calls, texts, and emails from her. I only know this because the one time he accidentally left his computer open one night I found emails that were not in the cell phone so I know he’s covering tracks.

You are on this- no more- he will need to be an open book.

And of course, when confronted about covering tracks he claims that it’s because I go crazy over “nothing.” He wouldn’t have to cover his tracks if his wife was understanding . . .

I think they call that blameshifting or something where he blames YOU instead of taking responsibility for his inappropriate actions.


The one piece of information I have that he does not know I have is access to the phone records. He might figure that I can access the phone records, but I don’t think he knows that I have downloaded Excel files of all call logs for the past year, sorted them to count minutes to her vs. me, and tracked the trend over the past 9 mos. I can also see the times he’s called her and on 3+ occasions I can see that he called her while he was driving home from various nights out. Some of those nights he told me he was hanging out with non-work friends and so she shouldn’t have been around. So, even if he wasn’t with her, he’s drunk dialing her on the way home? Yuck.
JACK POT!!! Save this


The one thing he has on his side is that there is no missing $$$. If he’s taking her anywhere, she’s paying because I can access all of the accounts online and I check them often. But of course he knows that I do the finances so he would know to cover his tracks there too.

Is he using cash? Work credit cards? Or a secret credit card?

I can’t say I trust the working late 100%. His busy season was worse and is dragging on longer than expected. He says it’s because he’s trying to get a promotion; I worry he’s not really logging all of the hours he’s gone. And even if I could get a hold of his billable hour counts, I know that in his profession it is common to log more hours than billed.

I’ve thought of driving by his work at night, but I’d have to put my daughter in the car and risk that he’d recognize the car. She might tell him we went; he might see me. And I might get all the way there (30 mins away) only to find his car in the parking garage, which would ultimately mean nothing because she could have driven away from the office and left his car there just in case. My mom says I should hire a PI, but I couldn’t cover the cost trail.

I think you could ask about hiring a PI in Newcomers--there has to be a way to figure it out. I was also wondering if you had a close friend or relative who would either 1) lend you their car and babysit your D while you snooped or 2)drive by for you and take a pic of course with cell phone

I hate that I am even thinking like a detective myself. It feels dirty and wrong when I’m supposed to have a marriage of TRUST![/


Sorry but right now you do not have a marriage of trust-you are in a war for your marriage. I don't mean to sound dramatic- but it is really very serious. And you sound like you have been thinking very carefully about all of this- very smart!!

quote]


Melody let me ask you- are you ready and willing to go no contact with him, if he refuses to end the "friendship?"

Also, I think you said she was married, right? So you can show her husband the information you have as well and tell him to do what he wants with it- he may not want to believe it-but exposing may help to end it as well. This is tricky so you have to just go with your gut on who or how to expose. I am sure people at work gossip about them!

And can you find a really good therapist to help you and your H if he agrees to end it? Just get your plan really tight-

[zengreentea]

Go to the forum list for infidelity - how do i expose the affair
117 pages. Go to page 1 of 117 and read the post by Chatterbug.

This is what I should have do. Please read and consider. If I would have read that post last April, I would have missed out on a year of tears, hopes dashed and being generally miserable.