Laura - Sorry about your H's rants. Mine wasn't bad, but would occasionally get worked up, and he HATED it if I walked out of the room. He was the kind of guy, he'd get all his bad feelings out, then he'd feel better and want to be close. But I would feel slimed by all his ugly feelings. Ugh.
I'd say it was fifty-fifty in our case - I definitely am argument-avoidant, it makes me feel really insecure. But his pressured need to tell me whatever it was at the time, was also a bit off.
And it's hard to forget some of the things they say, isn't it? My H once accused me of practicing quack medicine while he was on one of his rants. Later he denied saying it, and he often refers patients to me, lol!
I think you're doing the right thing, though, setting limits on that behavior.
Thanks kml. I am thrilled you are here and reading--you were/are the "DB Queen" and I would seek out all your advise because you were just SO GOOD!!
(your next R is going to be awesome--don't you just KNOW it!!!)
One thing I can tell you from my experience with "The Ranter", is, they DON'T remember it later. So I'm totally not surprised he didn't remember saying what he said later. Mine has told me to do things during "the rant" and then later when I'm doing it, asking me why I'm doing that!! Sheesh!
OK--well today's rant came, and went.lol. He got me in the car!! the stinker! I hope I didn't look too amused, but he is hysterical the way he just HAS to get off his chest how horrible I am.
H HATES for me to leave as well. But the counselor told me, in FRONT of him, to leave and that he shouldn't be doing this. So he knows....
Well, I did good anyway. (God, I love detachment!!) I said my "script" several times, and he seemed calmer than in the past (course, he was driving.) He doesn't get "loving", but it does seem to help him get something off his chest. He acted pretty Ok when we got home.
I think if my own LL was anything but "Words of Affirmation", this would't be quite so painful. But "words" it is, and it is almost unbearable what he says. In the past I have been wrecked for hours, even days, afterwards.
He once told me I never got him any nice gifts for his B-day or Xmas. I was so stunned I couldn't speak and was a complete mess for DAYS thinking back all the stuff I'd gotten him. I plan for WEEKS what to get him. He gets more than my S gets for Xmas!!
Now, I have done some research outside of this site, and there is a Narcissism site that I got all my scripts from that explains a lot about anger, your reaction, their reasons for using it (makes a weak person feel strong). By beating me down, he will make me ? not leave him? God, it is convoluted! But yeah--something like that.
And MY emotional maturity is also very key to this dynamic. I have to quickly get to a place of peace and calm--walks outside, listening to music, eat bananas (! I have ALWAYS been a banana fan!lol). There are lots of them, but this has given me permission to go ride my horse without guilt. Which, I am going to do after I post this update!! I actually can pull myself together, knowing I don't have to "suffer for my sins" so to speak.
So all in all, even though he was especially nasty ( Goodness, what did he say this time that was a Zinger--look how good I did--I forgot what he said!!! JUST like HE TOTALLY FORGETS LATER!!!), I did well. Yeah me! (you know, I probably forgot because I was SO busy in my head remembering my scripts.lol)
And I held my ground about renting out the property we have. He wants to sell it. I told him absolutely I will not agree to this as long as our relationship is this disfunctional. I told him what I needed in him for us to get back on track--which was a big 180 for me. (go to church, have sex with me more than 10 times a year, once a week is what I asked for but I made the point to tell him we had it less than 10 times last year, and our communication had to follow the "rules" our counselor gave us).
Can he actually do this? I don't know. He didn't seem scared away though...
He said something later about "I'm not going to be doing ....if you are leaving" and I said I am NOT leaving--I am doing everything the counselor told me to do and THEN some."
So, I'm going to have a lovely ride (OMG it is gorgeous out) and then get back to my "list".
Being with an Acts of Service person SO SUCKS sometimes!!lol.
I think i know the narcissism site you are talking about - you sent me a link and I read their stuff religiously. Good for you for doing your self soothing and the script responses I'll have to have mine ready too. How do you deal with the denial? I get that constantly - that he never said what he said which serves to make me look like the crazy woman he vows to dump.
Hey H4L, you are doing good over there on your thread--good for you!
I'm so glad you got to check out that link--I have found that site SO helpeful with the scripts, and explaining why they do what they do.
My H may not be a total narcissist, but he does have anger issues and always has. From that site I get that he hasn't fully differentiated himself--I think of it like a big 2 year old that still likes to have tantrums. It makes him feel powerful. It's actually addictive! And if you don't learn to defend yourself, you are bullied, just like kids at school pick on weaker kids. No different--they see us as weak (which, in a lot of ways I HAVE been a big WEENIE!lol) I am working on the "healthy things" that give me lots of PMA and make me have confidence--they are less likely to pick on you that way!
It's hard work H4L, but OMGoodness, it is SO worth it. I am completely devoted to making myself better and better--it makes you giggle inside to do things that they don't expect! And best of all, you will BE the person you always wanted. I am seeing that the only thing holding me back is ME all this time--it actually wasn't my H at all. (I GAVE himm so much power--power over ME! and what I want to be!)
The denial and all the other stuff--shear nonsense. I know, it throws us COMPLETELY that they can say what they do. All marriages have a bit of that where the one remembers some facts, and the other remembers other things. But mine--just a TON of nutso stuff when he is angry.
That is the key to me--it's when he is angry. It is not what he says when he isn't angry. So he is like a kid that grabs whatever is closest to throw at you and hope to get a rise from you. From that site I understand that they look to you to "help" them get out their anger.
If you don't engage, you may see the other thing that comes out--sulking. Has your H ever gone on a major sulk? Mine, since my using scripts and walking out, has been having sulks. Sheesh, they are sometimes even MORE annoying!!
You will see over and over that yes--they love to make you the "crazy" thing (well, how else can they justify what they do??" You are forced, for your own sanity and for your son, to "grow up" in ways you never thought possible. It's hard. You thought you were done growing a while back, huh. NOPE! It's a new kind of growth now--the really, really important stuff. Integrity, character, wisdom, unconditional love.
Look at your son and see that your H was once like that--adorable, innocent, sweet. Treat him like you would treat your S. This is irrisistible to anyone and everyone. No expectations, no preconceived notions--just love him and treat him right. This site also teaches you about "modeling". If he is unreasonable, YOU model reasonableness. If he is not empathetic, YOU model it. Sorry that you have to do it--but...you will be the better for it in the end.
You have a lot of life over there--my angry H was scary quiet 6 years ago when he was truly, truly ending it. When he got back into "thinking about working it out" with me, the anger began. That is why I am not freaked out right now AT ALL. Angry means he's working things out. Quiet is very, very scary.....
Yes--Kim's site. I signed up to get the emails and have found her blog to be very good.
Boundaries, boundaries. I am so not good at this stuff. H rants all over the place "I'm not paying for XYZ" (when it has to do with me--although he knows I start a class in May and he's paying for it).
But he takes off with S and drives 200 miles here and there, eats out, does activities. On the one hand, the reason I'm back to this is because of how rotten he was treating S. I didn't know how to stop it.
So, I did what I did (almost became a WAW myself there!) and I have to say--he's been treating S in a completely different way. I'm thankful for that. And my changes that he doesn't know where they are coming from? I was thinking of this the other day. He is treating S so good that I can't help but be smiling and happy inside (and I'm sure it shows).
We fixed up S's room (new paint, furniture, curtains, AND a flatscreen TV!!) My S is such a wonderful kid. Honors at school, active with the band, LOVES drama and in every play, girls like him but he knows "no girlfriends, just girls AS friends".
And it's been healing for me--nobody cared about me or my living space when I was his age. My parents were going through a nasty, bitter divorce with an affair, my mom's mental issues, and then they dragged the nonsense on for 5 years!! My teen years were beyond nightmarish. I actually don't know how I made it. My brother didn't (he's in prison now for 5 years for attempted murder--always been on drugs since this time).
So H tells my S (not me) "get your homework done today, I may be taking you to XYZ tomorrow." I don't know if I should be Ok with this? He never discussed it with me and he knows I want S to go to church on Sundays. On one hand it seems like he is taking advantage of me. I usually "give in" to things(trying to stay flexible--but H rarely lets me have any continuity to my life). But on the other hand, if they are getting close again, that has to be a good thing. S is 14 and I thought for a bit there that he was going to end up hating his dad. Now they are becoming good pals again.
Anyone? Should I just relax about this stuff? Is a boundary being crossed here?
So what was it that you did that turned H around in the way he treats S? I have this problem too... I also understand caving to the demands of Mr. Control Freak. ONly you can decide if it's more important now to be setting and following through on firm boundaries (my vote) in terms of respecting if you and S already have plans for church. Its' the more painful route but read Kim's blog again. She had to take complete control and set all the boundaries. And your H needs to respect you more including your plans with or for S.
Now if you feel that him spending bonding time is more important, let it go. Vent here, whatever you need to do to discharge your feelings, but let them have the time.
HOwever it sounds like he's like my H where he feels he can go around and do what he wants with no consideration for you and in a hypocritical way and I think it's important you stick to your boundaries.
Otherwise, it's like he's kind of bullying you - you don't want to say anything because he's in a nice phase and you want to keep it that way. But he should be nice all the time and not be rewarded just because he's not being a complete abusive jerk.
Hey H4L, what turned things around for me was pretty drastic:
I almost became the WAW. I told my h I'd be taking S with me, we had a place about 45 minutes from here we were welcome to come to, and I had looked into a new school and I was SERIOUS.
It's not something you can fake (from all I've learned here). My "mamma bear" mode CAME OUT and I was not myself even. He has always loved his S (more than me even) and his behaviour had changed to awful.
He surprised me--wanted to go to counseling, went to church with me about 6-7 times (has since quit), cried a few times (I felt NOTHING), offered me the moon and stars if I just stayed in the house here, etc, etc.
In counseling I saw there were some other things I could do, and we got RULES about communication. That was HUGE for me. Like someone giving me permission to not expose myself to all his "vomit" (which is what I call it).
I started to get something I haven't had for a while--hope. I thought a good wife listened to all that stuff--that it was 'validating". It's not--it doesn't stop, you are just allowing them to spew all over you.
So it has stopped for now. But his behaviour is....not great....I think part of leaving so much (with S) is him "dfferentiating" himself. He is definitely on a path of some sort--cold at times, testing at times, himself a little at times....
It's different than before. I was a complete basket case because last time I saw CLEARLY that I was WRONG in so many areas of our marriage.
I actually don't feel that way now. Honestly, I have grown a ton. And my last thing to do for ME is to set boundaries in a loving but firm way. I may lose this M. I am really, really delving into this may be what happens.
So....I am really thrilled they are getting close again. They DO need that bond. I spoke to a friend who saw the two of them together and he said it was just so obvious that my H loves his S. Unfortunately, you don't always appreciate things until they are almost taken away.
I hope this love will motivate him and give him the extra push he needs to treat his family right.
I went to the coffee shop last night with S and there were some friends there having dinner. We joined them and had a great night. So I got to spend some good time with S myself this weekend.
And then today I went to church alone and stayed for 2 services, it was that good! I met two gals behind me, one is separated from her H, and one is working on getting hers to church. They were both pretty young, but BOY--they were really "with it". Detachment, unconditional love, the quiet, unreactive spirit that you MUST DEVELOP to make change--sheesh--they knew ALL about that and THEN some!! They were truly inspirational!!
So for today, I feel it was "meant to be". I will be patient about this a bit longer. I do think I will set a boundary about it in a couple of months--I get him a couple of Sundays a month, and if they need to make plans on a Sunday they can, but not more than 2 a month.
Also, I can start taking my S to church Wednesday nights too, now that his play is finished.
Hey, H4L, there is a guy named "Allen" over in Infidelity. I go over there and read his threads just because he is AMAZING at setting good boundaries. I am hoping to have some of his insight "rub off" on me.lol.
