Invinceable

[ClingingToHope]

Mishka, I feel for you. I mean, today I had a good hour long mediation session with STBXW and it just blew my day to Hell.

I actually thought of you during the day. I wondered what I would feel like if two years after the divorce STBXW showed up one night looking for a little action.

I'm pretty sure I'd take her up on it, but then what. If I'm a mess after just a positive conversation what would I be if we actually ended up together for a night or two.

It's just so hard to fully turn the page.

[whatisis]

OK, is that what happened? He showed up for a little action or he lives there? Still lost here!

[oldtimer]

But Mike, if an R can't heal from infidelity, then pretty much everyone on these boards has completely wasted their time.

In Mish and Gabe's case, neither party has ever acted like HE/SHE was totally done, not really. It's been pretty frustrating to watch actually.

Here's the deal --

To have a good romantic R with ANYONE, Mish and Gabe BOTH have to do a lot of work on themselves, and a lot of work on who they are as partners. They BOTH have to deal with the old issues and work through them with someone, they aren't going to go away. It is possible that Gabe got a wake up call and is ready to work on himself. We don't know.

We do know that Mish needs to learn to own her choices, make herself happy, set and maintain reasonable boundaries, learn to be strong enough to take real emotional risks, etc... The present situation is thus potentially a good opportunity for work that Mish needs to do regardless of how things turn out in the long run.

What do I really think about the chances here?

Small. But, that is true of ANY dating relationship. MOST dating relationships fail, very nearly ALL of them fail.

What do I really think about the situation?

It's a mighty fine mess. I'd certainly recommend dating someone before living together in a sexual relationship, especially with children involved. But, that's not what happened. Neither of them was DONE, or Gabe wouldn't be living with Mish. They are having sex. There are feelings involved. There is so much game playing between the two it is ridiculous. It's like an annoying soap opera where the star crossed lovers keep almost sharing their feelings, but then stop because of fear or because the other person pushes back because of fear for the nth time. The standard Harlequin cliche. Blah blah blah. Over and over. Drives me nuts, really nuts. Worse, they are living together as parents of their son. Son no doubt has his hopes up now too. What to do??? If they are BOTH toying with the idea of starting a new R and seeing where it goes, what to do? It is indeed a mighty fine mess now that they are living together as parents of a child and having an active sexual relationship. Crazy.

But, how do you back up and take things more slowly? I guess Mish could stop the sex, have Gabe move out, and tell him that she might be interested in exploring a dating R, and then set boundaries on such an R. But, given the context, it is pretty tricky to get from here to there.

You say men can't change. That's bull. Is it likely Gabe will change? I have no idea. Mish probably has a better sense of whether there has been a real shift in him. If he is changing and they wind up together, dealing with his past infidelity, his present floundering when it comes to learning how to be monogamous, and his future fidelity (when triggers to cheat arise) will be work that they have to do together. But, whether they do it together or not, they will BOTH have to deal with the infidelity issues that each has now. They can do it together, or apart, or not at all. But if they don't do it at all, the issues will sabotage future Rs one way or another.

One thing in all of this seems certain to me: it is better for Mish to make decisions based on her wishes from a position of strength than to run away in a panic mode when she knows darn well she'd halfway want Gabe to run after her.

MISH -- whatever you do, it will be hard. There isn't an easy path from where you are. So, focus on doing right by YOURSELF. And, remember, you can always change paths, you can always change your mind.

For certain and for sure, the farther you go down a new R path, the more treacherous it will get. There WILL be backsliding. There WILL be new mistakes. There WILL be old dirty laundry aired that you never even knew about. There WILL be a lot of new pain. There MIGHT be new joy. There MIGHT be growth. There MIGHT be success in terms of a new R.

Where you need to get in your head if you stay on the treacherous path is that NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS with you and Gabe, the experience will be a success FOR YOU because the possible benefits were worth the risks and because you treated yourself well EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. You gotta learn to do this when negotiating the path of any R. So, learning to do this now will make your current experiences a positive for you, even if you decide to change your locks (with Gabe on the other side of them) tomorrow.

[BobbiJo]

OK, is that what happened? He showed up for a little action or he lives there? Still lost here!

Mish can correct me/fill in but the short version is he needed a place to stay and Mish allowed him to crash on her couch presuming he was looking for a new place to live....it was sort of win-win bc he needed somewhere to sleep and she benefitted bc he could keep an eye out on her ailing mother while she was at work...

[oldtimer]

P.S. Mish, I will give you one very direct word of advice -- if you are trying out the path that might lead toward reconcilliation, don't push Gabe.

Set your boundaries. Fine.

Pushing Gabe to express his feelings, to commit, etc... Not fine.

Give him space. Let him figure out what he wants on his own. He's an adult, he can do it. If you try to nudge him, you will BOTH have doubts about the sincerity of his feelings and commitments. Moreover, if you try to nudge him, you may well force him into adopting a position that he wouldn't otherwise hold.

You think you are all over the place? Gabe is probably a million times worse. Neither of you really knows where things might lead. Neither knows even where you'd like things to lead. If I asked you, I'd probably get five different answers at five different times. Gabe is going to be the same way.

Respect yourself. Set boundaries. Don't make ultimatums. LET GABE do most of the R work. Only then will you both be clear that the R is something he really wants for himself.

[whatisis]

Ah, thank you! I have a friend who let his girlfriend move in while she looked for a new place to stay and, guess what, she's still there and he says he wants her out but she never seems to leave and it's been two years! Yet, if he REALLY wanted her out, she'd be out...who's he kidding!
Wow, tough stuff Mishka. People always say they can't fathom how I stay sane in my unusual R I have with my STBX but I'm thinking that about you and your sitch right now. Seeing him every day and having to deal with all the emotional turmoil which it must bring up...whew, I bow down to you!

[ernest88]

But Mike, if an R can't heal from infidelity, then pretty much everyone on these boards has completely wasted their time.

Statistically speaking...just by looking at this board..then I think we did...

truth of the matter is all of us come here way to late to save a marriage...we do get major benefit by making the changes we make while here...just for the simple fact that new partners find our changes hot..

and OT..I agree with everything you say..that's some solid advice...for sure..and VOR is right with you...the sitch has given me a headache..

I guess my question for Mish is this...

you doing this because it's comfortable??

you doing this because you still love him??

you doing this cause you THINK you can't do any better??

You say men can't change.

I don't think I said that...I think I said "old dogs can't learn new tricks" Prime examples of change here as far as men go...IMO..

Mish..answer those questions...I call bullchitt on your.."i'm still thinking comment"

[AliSuddenly]

Hi Mish...wow I've been away a while and just catching up.. gosh!!! I have been reading and at first I was actually excited for you.. you know I never believed you all those times you said you were done and "that ship has sailed". Its always complicated with you and Gabe and he certainly never seemed done either, despite the illusion of a new R with the broom. I need to read back further to see how that ended!!

But then I saw that he was straight off expecting to be back in the bedroom, whilst also texting a new woman friend...you dont need me to tell you to be careful. Dont beat yourself up for the other night, hey maybe it was carthatic on some level to have him back in your bed once more? I know it would have been for me. But, no harm in resetting that boundary hey!

If you really do still love and care or want this man, I would say, just be compassionate and consistent and no, dont push him. If you like him being in the house, tell him hey. A little gentle honesty is fair enough, if you just talk about how YOU feel and dont ask him to reciprocate. But.. I really need to read back!

love al xx

[oldtimer]

Mish,

I saw this today and thought of you: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/the-power-of-desire-witho_b_537690.html

What are your deepest dreams?

[mishka422]

Hey there all.

It's been a couple of crazy days at work and I haven't had the time or energy to even think about what you all have said. I will say that I have read everything and am absorbing it but it takes me a while to process.

Still don't know what is going on or why I allowed this to happen. Honestly, I will say that my emotions have fully engaged and I don't know what to do about that. It's my problem to deal with though and I'll find a way to shut them down. There is no way that he has any feelings for me other than those of a sexual nature and I hoped I could hold it that way on my end too but it's just not possible for me.

I'll post more as I figure things out but right now it's nearly 1am and I have to be up at 6am to take mom to dialysis from her rehab center so I should hit the hay. I'll catch up with everyone ASAP.

Hugs to you all and please, if you have any other thoughts on ways to set effective boundaries and maintain them I'm all ears. It is definitely not my strong suit.