Hi Cemar I agree it is a shame that these people did not put a bit more detail and continue to post but at least it goes to show that there has been some success out there.
Did you see this post from Nopkins.
Well, I think I spoke too soon in my last post. Time is an incredible thing, the great equalizer.
It seems that the more time elaspes between the old, no sex part of our relationship, and the effort at a return to normalcy, the more at ease I become.
I think the trust is returning. Trust that we will never visit the desert again. Trust that her desire for me is genuine. Trust that she will be vigilant not to ease into old habits.
I am maintaining my part of the repair effort. There is a very real caring redeveloping between us. I really do wish we could have solved this riddle years ago before it became such a festering wound.
So, things are going well between us.
If I could offer heartfelt advice to everyone suffering with similar issues, it would siimply be, don't wait, do something about your problem - NOW. Sex problems in a marriage apparently seldom self resolve.
This couple had clearly found a way to make some changes but as I say it's a shame he didn't write a bit more about how he did it.
Anyway as I said every sitch is different so I suppose the thing to do is look at your own sitch anyway as copying someone else would not necessarily work.
Although there are clearly many reasons for an imbalanced physical relationship, what is the most puzzling aspect is the attitude of many LD Spouses that the touch needs of the HD Spouse are valid and extremely important to the HD Spouse and to the relationship as a whole.
I know in my case, my wife really doesn't believe that it should be that important to me to have a sex life. Her very negative comments to me before and/or after any of our rare encounters clearly indicate that she is bitter that I have touch needs and that she feels obliged to be my partner.
The underlying tone of many other posts, seem to be along the same lines as my situation. When it comes down to it, if the LD spouse loves the HD partner and really believed that their spouse's touch needs were important and valid, wouldn't they try to be accomodating in one way or the other? After all, if the HD spouse's needs in this area are valid and important, what alternatives are there to the HD spouse other than finding another touch partner, suffering or trying to reduce their need to be a sexual being?
I am sure that in most cases, the LD spouse does love his/her partner and perhaps secretly hopes that their HD spouse will eventually become LD. I would also guess that the LD spouse really feels inadequate or guilty about their libido issues and they put up all sorts of defense mechanisms which become more difficult to break down over time because the HD spouse keeps reminding the HD spouse (often in subtle ways) that their needs are not being met.
I hope in my case that I can find a way to convince my wife that my needs are valid and significant. I believe that this could be at the heart of many other similar situations. Cemar, I can really feel your frustration and have great empathy, but you (and I) need to really figure out why there is no willingness to meet your spouse's needs.
Monk: I think all of your points are very valid. I too have always wondered why a LD spouse can be told that we desire sex in such and such a way, AND THEN THEY NEVER DO THAT. You can tell them till your blue in the face, they respond as though they understand, and THEN NEVER DO ANYTHING. When your spouse KNOWS that you want sex and that you want THEM to initiate it, if they love you, they would do these things. I find it VERY hard to not harbor anger and resentment towards my wife. She has this bizarre concept that since sex is NOT a high priority for her, that she does not really have to do anything. You would think that she would want to do things FOR me because I want them done. I do things for her and the family ALL the time that I don't care to do.
I also wonder why, like my wife, that a LD can have a wonderful orgasmic evening enjoying sex, but then does not desire the sex. How can a person have such a great experience when they have it, yet NEVER DESIRE IT! I would understand if there were physical issues preventing it, but in my wifes case, there are none. Considering how intense her orgasims are, you would think that she would WANT them. Very strange to me.
I am also beginning to think that in many HD/LD relationships that the LD spuose gets enough of the first 4 love languages that they literally don't see a big problem, and even though things may not be great, they get enough to be somewhat satisfied. Now for the HD spouse, they are in the 5th love language, touch. This language seem to be very hard for some LD people so they AVOID IT. Since being LD is SO prevalent, I think that society has CONNED people in to believing the "It's only sex" line. I know my wife has told me this on occassion. You see it all the time on these boards even, and we are the more "ENLIGHTENED" people when it comes to relationships. It's like sex and touch are "lessor" emotional needs. Heck, most LD people probably would even value them even lower as only being "Physical" needs for 1 person. Heck, even some HD people on here have basically given up on their sex lives and yet claim that they can have an acceptbale marriage. Maybe us HD folks are becomming "Enablers", people that enable someone else to keep up a bad habit. We keep feeding the LD people enough love in their love languages to keep a tolerable marriage, while letting them off the hook on the sex side.
Monk, maybe us HD people should do a drastic 180, figure out all the love languages our spouse like, and then CUT THEM OFF. Provide them with no love in any form that they want, just like they do to us. Don't talk to them, don't help around the house, ignore the kids. just stop everything. Act like they and the familiy are not important, like the way we feel when OUR needs are not met.
Unfortunately, I bet the result would be we would be at the curb within 48 hours. Probably not a good 180.
Now that I have vented long enough, I need to keep working on goal #1, try to get my wife to understand how serious this problem is.
Thanks Jiji: These qoutes show me that at least this guy is happier and has things moving in the right direction. It sounds like he is a long way from the mountain top, but he is climbing. If nothing else, this gives me more encouragement to at least develop a problem solving strategy with my wife. There has been very little conlict in our marriage, so most of our conflicts were with outside sources, which usually means being on the same side of the issue. Now we need to develop a strategy to deal with conflicts where we are on opposite sides of the issue. Sounds like Nopkins has gotten to this plateau where he and his wife have acknowledged the problem and are working (very slowly) towards a solution. I wish I had followed his advice an attacked this problem 13 years ago when it started, it would be a whole lot easier.
Quote: I am also beginning to think that in many HD/LD relationships that the LD spuose gets enough of the first 4 love languages that they literally don't see a big problem, and even though things may not be great, they get enough to be somewhat satisfied. Now for the HD spouse, they are in the 5th love language, touch. This language seem to be very hard for some LD people so they AVOID IT. Since being LD is SO prevalent, I think that society has CONNED people in to believing the "It's only sex" line. I know my wife has told me this on occassion. You see it all the time on these boards even, and we are the more "ENLIGHTENED" people when it comes to relationships. It's like sex and touch are "lessor" emotional needs. Heck, most LD people probably would even value them even lower as only being "Physical" needs for 1 person. Heck, even some HD people on here have basically given up on their sex lives and yet claim that they can have an acceptbale marriage. Maybe us HD folks are becomming "Enablers", people that enable someone else to keep up a bad habit. We keep feeding the LD people enough love in their love languages to keep a tolerable marriage, while letting them off the hook on the sex side.
I think you are onto something significant here in your understanding. I agree with you totally that most LD people have most of their needs met through other love languages, and so therefore do not miss the physical aspect of communicating as much as HDs.
But I don't know that WITHHOLDING from your partner is going to lead them to greater understanding. Two wrongs don't make a right, hm? Now, I know it brings a bizarre sense of satisfaction to 'hurt back,' but I don't think you can teach empathy through negative behavior.
Though my own 'physical desire level' has not changed in the least, what DID change for me was my understanding of how deeply I was hurting my H, and that in fact sex was not 'just sex' to him. When I was able to understand that, and when I realized how important physical closeness was for me too (though I'd never say I 'crave' it), my desire to change my behaviors, my desire to reach out to him, my desire to NOT hurt him, my desire to strengthen and deepen our love went through the roof.
Does that make any sense to you?
I enjoy sex, and I ALWAYS have an orgasm, but I just don't experience physcial desire the way I think you may, and my H does. It's not in my realm of understanding because I have never experienced it that way myself. However, I now understand that just because I don't experience the world this way, does NOT mean that he doesn't, or that it is not a legitimate way to feel. I acknowledge his desires and the importance of them to him, and I do all I can to honor them and 'rise to the occassion' -- the knowledge that I am doing something that means so much to him is what 'fuels' my desire levels during sex. So I guess my 'emotional desire' is every bit as potent as his 'physical desire.'
You made a post somewhere about your wife sitting with her friends 'husband bashing,' and I can tell you I used to do this, and I am in complete agreement with you that these types of discussions are VERY damaging, not only to the husbands who may overhear them, but to the women participating in the discussion. I would love to challenge any and all of those women to stop their negative discourse and try to turn their entire conversation into finding the positives.
Those women (and I was one them not so long ago) are stuck in a very self-centered view of the world. It's mean, it's cruel, and it is self-destructive because all they do is reinforce some very serious misperceptions.
My point here is that if you could find a way to communicate to your wife how deeply you're hurting, and that sex is far more to you than 'just getting off,' -- I really feel she will find the ability to change.
Is she willing to read SSM? Would she be willing to go to one of Michele's couple's seminars with you?
CeMar, Have you tried presenting the issue to your wife this way:
"It's not 'just sex.' My love for you increases when we have sex. When we don't, the love I feel for you begins to diminish. I start loving you a little less and less. I don't want the love I feel for you to die. You may not ever understand it because that's not how it works for you, but it does for me. That's not going to change. So it's not just about some itch that needs scratching. It's about keeping my love for you alive."
The way you've been presenting your feelings on the BB, it comes across more as an itch. A really, really powerful itch, but still "just" an itch: "I need sex. If you loved me you would give me sex!"
The two messages have very different meanings. It was the first message, which Michelle presents in SSM, that gave me an entirely different perspective on what sex might be doing for my H. I had been engaging in "maintenance sex" with my H for several months before reading SSM. I was not feeling good about it, but reading this perspective helped. (Turns out that for my H, that isn't what sex does for him, but that's another story.)
Being HD does not necessarily mean that sex nurtures your feelings of love. Sometimes it does mean that it's just a really big itch. Only you know what it is for you. But IF it is the fertilizer for your love for your wife, then present it to her that way rather than as a need she ought to be filling. It might be a message she has an easier time hearing and understanding why this is so important.
If I could take your understanding of this problem, bottle it, and sell it, I would be a rich man. It is VERY hard to convince a LD spouse that sex is essentially LOVE to the HD spouse. They always see sex as a physical need, not an EMOTIONAL need. The 5 love languages explains this, and Michele explains this, but man it is hard to explain this to a low desire spouse, mainly cause they are speaking French while HD's speak German. And it is not just sex, but ALL physical touching that I include in this group, since many LD spouses actually lose interest in ALL touching(like my wife). My wife thinks she has addressed the problem, she is "WILLING" to have sex if I literally ask for it. THIS ACTUALLY MAKES THE PROBLEM WORSE IN THE LONG RUN. The LD spouse will eventually feel used(which I think she does), and the HD spouse probably will not be able to reach sexual fullfillment becuase the most important part about sex IS NOT THE SEX! HD spouses could have sex with any WHORE, what we want to have is sex with someone who WANTS the sex FROM US. Think back to high school, like in locker room talk among guys. Want to SLAM a guy, joke about his not getting any! BUT A BIGGER SLAM, maybe the ULTIMATE SLAM, is to joke about how he can't PLEASE his girl. So when a LD spouse says they just are not attracted anymore, or they don't desire sex anymore, THEY HAVE JUST GIVEN THE ULTIMATE HUMILIATION AND REJECTION OF THEIR SPOUSE THAT IS POSSIBLE. A "Willingness" to have sex just REINFORCES that HUMILIATION and rejection. DESIRE is what it is all about, and most LD people never figure this out.
Corri, I have also read the book 5 languages, found it very helpful. I know of course my language is Physical touch, but I am not sure what my wifes is yet. Literally, I now know that for me to receive love, it must be physical in nature, I can not recieve it in any other way. I know that I have always been giving love the same way, and I now know that my wife is NOT hearing me, for obvious reasons. Some how I must learn her language and then I must tell her that if she wishes to love me, it must be in a physical way, and it must be DAILY(but not always sex). I can see where many LD women get turned off by this cause it literally seems like their men are little boys waiting to receieve candy. When your starved for LOVE, how can you avoid this?
Also, Corri, I think I am understanding a little more about my wife. I can get down(not depressed though), and she will ask is everything OK? Of course I will say I am fine, when in reality I am thinking how bad my marriage sucks. But rather then make a scene or get into some heavy relationship discussion, I just say fine. But don't women want us guys to OPEN up to them, let them into our THOUGHTS and EMOTIONS. This is a PRELUDE to emotional connection, which preludes intimacy. But how to start opening up without it becoming HEAVY? I WANT to STOP saying fine, and let her know what I am thinking, but not with anything to HEAVY. Let's face it, I am not to good with opening up to her. I need to coneect with her on her terms.
SInce you see me describing it in the wrong way, then I guess that explains why my wife ALSO does not understand me. I somehow have to explain that for me to receive love it must be in a physical way. Other forms of loving are appreciated, but they don't really help to fill my love tank, I really only get this through acts of touching of which SEX will give the MOST love to my love bank. I will have to revise that and make it sound more personal, but you get the drift here. But man, it sounds like I will be asking my wife to do something that will be PAINFUL for her to get through, she just is not into touchy, feely stuff anymore.
You have indicated that you need to find a way to let your wife know how important touch is to your feelings of well being. It sounds to me that you have repeatedly tried communicating this to your wife and that she either is not interested in meeting your needs or doesn't understand the desperation you now feel. I am in a the same situation - my wife indicates that she loves me and acknowledges the void in our (my) life in this area. She knows I am suffering from the lack of touch. I gather from this board that this situation is all too common.
I believe it was MPT who indicated that she was the LD spouse in a somewhat similar situation to you but the lightbulb finally went on. I am sure that there are also other success stories where the LD person finally does find it in their capacity to pay attention to their spouse's touch needs, even though they fundamentally remain LD. I wonder what it is or what event occurs that triggers this change in the LD person. I suspect the change is usually due to some event, such as a separation or serious threat of divorce that triggers a change in attitude. I believe that in our case, unless this change comes about, any form of meaningful compromise will not be possible.
Quote: I wonder what it is or what event occurs that triggers this change in the LD person. I suspect the change is usually due to some event, such as a separation or serious threat of divorce that triggers a change in attitude. I believe that in our case, unless this change comes about, any form of meaningful compromise will not be possible.
The event that occurred for me was when I read the SSM book. It was through Michele's descriptions of other couple's sex arguments (that were eerily very much like my H and mine), and her explaination of what sex really meant to HDers, that I was able to understand how much I had been unintentionally hurting my H, and what sex really meant to him.
Though he tried several times and in several ways to explain this to me himself, he was usually so frustrated and/or angry that instead of me hearing what he was saying, all I heard was the anger. So I, without guilt, was able to dismiss his 'claims.'
I'm not proud of that. Hearing all this through a third party, who I feel was able to explain things in such a manner as to not 'blame' me for my obstusenss, was what allowed me to find it in myself to admit how wrong I was and allow understand to break through my thick head.
And, thank God, my H never once threw it in my face by saying 'I told you so!!' He was just damn happy I had changed.
I have to say that my H and I were on the brink of going the divorce route (he was and so was I). Only until we both had that very real 'reality slap in the face' were we both ready and willing to start working together to find our solutions instead of working against one another.
I don't think you should ever threaten anyone with divorce in order for them to have sex with you. However, if you get to the point that you think you have tried everything under the sun (including marriage counseling), and you just can't think of anything else... well, sometimes leaving -- without anger and accusation -- IS the only way to break through the spouse's fog. I think this is the absolute Last Resort Tactic... but, sometimes it is the only thing that penetrates the fog.
And if/when you do leave, you know in your heart that there is a very real possibility that you won't ever go back -- AND YOU ACCEPT THAT. If you use this as a ploy, it will backfire in your face so fast you will wonder what hit you.
CeMar, I think you need to get into counseling even if your wife won't go. It is a big, BIG indication to her in a nonverbal way, that you are not happy -- not only with the lack of sex in your life, but with your entire marriage.
I hear many HDers say that, "with the exception of my sex life, I have a great marriage." I think that is bull pucky. I don't think you have any idea how tumultuous and unhappy most of your marriage is because you are so focused on one very important aspect of it. I can only tell you through my own experience that once my H and I got our sex issues straightened out, a number of other aspects to our relationship outside the bedroom improved dramatically as well.
Just my opinion. I think, if the two of you have not been to counseling, you should go on your own, whether or not your wives go with you.
I don't think it is a sin against humanity or the sanctity of marriage to proclaim that we are 'unhappy' with the state of things. I personally believe you owe it to your spouses to make sure they are crystal clear about your state of unhappiness (and not just with the sex). But then YOU must DO something about it, and going to a marriage counselor is an amazing first step. You are no longer dependent on your spouse to change or take care of your unhappiness. You take that power away from them, and believe me, they WILL notice.
-- the knowledge that I am doing something that means so much to him is what 'fuels' my desire levels during sex. So I guess my 'emotional desire' is every bit as potent as his 'physical desire.'