He's also got a lot personally invested in the idea that it was necessary and useful.
Oh, yeah, I mean all that money I make from my book publishing, and speaking fees, and charging people for all the advice I give on here to try and help them. Yep -- heavily invested, alright.
GH, sorry for the diversion from your sitch. You seemed content with the direction you were going, so I (and everyone else) stopped the "debate" and it was over until Oldtime saw SOME reason to resurrect it here this morning. But I'm sorry, I'm not going to sit idly by while I'm personally attacked.
I have well over 15,000 posts on these forums between Puppy Dog Tails and Chocolateeyes. Nowhere have I EVER advocated "beating up," "blowing up the WAS's life," or ANYTHING like what has been characterized here.
I meant a personal, not monetary, investment -- of course I don't think you are trying to make money off of people! Believing in the importance of exposing affairs in most cases is an important part of who you are, I take it. You seem quite passionate about it. That's all I meant. Sorry that you felt personally attacked.
As for: "blowing up his Ws life, humiliating her with her family, and so on," I simply take these to be pretty direct consequences of exposing an affair to others and in particular to family members. OF COURSE it is hugely disruptive to have one's affair exposed. OF COURSE it is humiliating for one's parents and children to learn about an affair. Some people think these costs (whether intentional or byproducts) are worth the benefits and effective tools to reconciliation. For instance, you do, I don't. I'm pretty sure most people who go the exposure route after careful thought on these boards, as you did, do it from a loving place with the intention of helping themselves, the WAS, the family,and the M.
Regarding my phrase "not beating up," I assure you that I meant it metaphorically and I was talking about GH's approach. I don't often see people on these boards confessing to or supporting physical abuse -- that was the farthest thing from my mind. What I do see far too often is LBSs who go into emotional attack/blaming/guilting/judging/yelling-rant mode over and over and over again, trying to make the WAS "see the light" through extreme unpleasantness. Basically, a WAS is going to avoid the LBS as much as humanly possible to avoid this kind of assault. Grasshopper is very good about not slipping into that kind of attack mode, he is very aware of how to intentionally move away from that kind of approach.
Now, as for YOU Mr. Puppy, even in a metaphorical sense, I can't recall you acting in that beating-up mode or imagine that you would. I didn't mean to suggest that you did. But, looking back, I can see that such an accidental implication could follow from my less than careful transition away from my paragraph praising GH's to the following thoughts. So, yes, I very sincerely apologize for that unintended implication.
To be clear, when I said that you were a counterexample, I was only thinking about you being a counterexample to how to handle affairs with respect to making the A a central urgent issue and exposing it.
Regarding "moralizing," we've had that conversation. Some things you said to your W early on struck me as moralizing and it seemed to me that you later changed your approach. Indeed, I complimented you on it. I believe at the time that you disagreed, holding that you never moralized. But, like I already said, we have different perspectives on that. All I can say is how things look to me. When I said it before, I didn't mean it as an insult but as a compliment of your personal growth, a sign of detachment, of strength and compassion. Today I pointed to it as a marker in what I perceive to be a shift in you that was very important to your success. Really, I didn't mean it as an insult.
My post was (1) intended to let Grasshopper know that in fact I think his approach is in general a good one and the only sort that really seems to lead to reconciliation to me, and (2) to encourage him to listen to you about boundaries even though you are coming from a very different perspective.
Indeed, the second point was really my main point. Cuz, I still think GH is a wee bit weak on the self-respecting boundaries, which is maybe, just maybe, why he veers off to the controlling side of things. If we don't create and maintain effective self-respecting boundaries in our lives, then it seems to me that we'll be a lot more likely to try to control others who are doing things that would violate boundaries if they were in place. For instance, consider GH's controlling behavior around the hunting boy. If GH had already had some clearer boundaries in place, I think things would be going a bit differently for him... "No friends who aren't friends to the M." "Immediate and complete transparency whenever requested." Unfortunately, now he's gotten himself into a pretty tricky place through his controlling behavior that makes it hard to put in place clear, direct, but non-controlling self-respecting, marriage-enhancing boundaries that aren't ultimatums. You are very, very good at this. It is developing this skill that I'd say is the biggest part of your success. Should you choose to share it with him, I was encouraging him to open his mind to you and LISTEN.
So, to summarize, I promise, my intent was not to attack you. I have no idea how your M is these days, but I know you've done your best, worked hard, grown immensely, seen enormous positive change in your R, and so on. You are a good guy. I really didn't anticipate that what I wrote about your perspective on the importance of exposing affairs would either surprise or distress you. But I can see how there were accidental implications that I did not mean to make. Apologies. Now, please help GH with his boundaries.
Holy crap OT and Puppy I wish I had time to weigh in on the commentary between you two but alas, I do not. Quick update.
Sorry I have been MIA for a few days. Been spending a lot of time with W, per her request. As for OM, and my subsequent behavior towards the sitch, well, maybe good news and bad.
First of all, I think, I really do, that I had my last "blow up" episode this weekend. Of course if you're going to do something for the last time, might as well do it well I had to work late on Saturday and despite her claims to the contrary, W saw OM for dinner. She said she was not going out but since the boys were both sleeping over with friends (that's never happened before and honestly a coincidence, nothing W could have planned) I figured she was going to go out. Funny thing is that she was home when I got home, something that's not happened since all this happened. Usually her M.O. is to stay out late. Anyway, I blew up. Sorry. Jack, OT, I am not proud of what I did. I didn't do it from a thoughtful place. I did it out of pure emotion.
We fought for awhile, her claiming over and over again that there was no affair, nothing for me to worry about, etc.
Funny though that we both managed to calm down and actually "started over" later and spent the rest of the night together.
I honestly don't know what to think. What I kept asking her was why all the clandestine activity if this was all innocent. Why won't this guy meet me if he has no ulterior motives? She said he was scared of me. She said there is NOTHING romantic about it. I said "not now maybe" and she admitted that she understands why I would be concerned.
I told her beyond everything else, I cannot accept the deception and if it continued it would eventually destroy our marriage. I told her that if nothing else, that had to stop, now. She said she understood where I was coming from but that she was that way because of how I "always" act, and have acted with friends of hers. We've covered that earlier in the thread. Some validity to that point but in the end, and even the next day when we spend some great time with the kids, and then yesterday when we went to lunch together, I reiterated my stance on the no secrecy thing. I am not totally sure she's on board but she seemed to indicate she is. For now, and since either OM has gone WAY underground or is MIA, I am going to cool off on all that.
So, bad news, I lost my cool. Good news is that I think I may have started the foundation for my new boundaries.
Oh, and we also talked at length yesterday about what her "issues" are in general. Her idea, not mine. She used the term "mid life crisis" but in the sense that she wants to make something happen in our life. She wants to move back to Europe and is depressed living here. It's something we've always talked about, and wanted to do, but never really followed through on. I told her I was game but needed solid finances and a solid marriage before thinking about that. She got excited and told me that if we started working towards that goal, she thought a lot would change for the better. Scapegoat, probably but I actually believe her. When we met she was basically bound for France and ended up marrying me, having kids and living here for 12 years. She's a VERY Eruocentric person who really has always missed that lifestyle so I know it's important to her. I always wanted to try living abroad too, and we think the kids would really benefit from it so... we committed to doing the research and go from there. I felt it was really positive.
Since W seems to want me around so much lately, I may not stop in as much.
I honestly don't know what to think. What I kept asking her was why all the clandestine activity if this was all innocent.
I would ask the same. Having been down this road before you SHOULD be asking these questions.
Quote:
Why won't this guy meet me if he has no ulterior motives? She said he was scared of me. She said there is NOTHING romantic about it.
Hmmm....Why do you think he would be scared?
Your a guy... I'm a guy. Do you honestly think this D Bag has no ulterior motives?
Good for you for taking a stand and telling her this isn't acceptable.
Quote:
She said she understood where I was coming from but that she was that way because of how I "always" act, and have acted with friends of hers. We've covered that earlier in the thread. Some validity to that point but in the end
No. Your past actions do not give her a free pass to have an inappropriate relationship of any kind. Even if she says nothing is going on, her meeting him for dinner and not being up front and honest with you is a no no IMO.
Quote:
So, bad news, I lost my cool. Good news is that I think I may have started the foundation for my new boundaries.
Keep your cool next time. Man whatever you do though, stick to your guns regarding whatever boundaries you set. Do not waiver.
All I can draw from is my journey. I'm grateful for the changes that have taken place having gone through it, but I wouldn't do it again.
I'm not at all telling you to be a controlling jerk. I'm just saying that if I were in your shoes I would be VERY clear and firm about what is and isn't acceptable.
You all have basically the same point. I am trying to work through the boundary thing. We'll see how that goes. No matter what, this sitch or any other, my W is a VERY stubborn person so...
My H is very stubborn too. His MLC has made him more stubborn, I can accept that, but it doesn`t make it right. That is something H has to learn to deal with. To learn to let go and compromise. Detaching works here.
We take enough crap from these WAS. I don`t fight my H`s stubborness anymore. What`s the point. When their mind is made up, nothing we can do to change it.
Yes, well, your W's response to your boundaries is her problem... Don't set your boundaries based on her actions, that makes them about her, not you...
Did you ever read PM or a book on boundaries??
Things are sounding better for you already, glad to hear it.
Had to rush W to emergency room last night because of a severe allergic reaction to a medicine she's taking. Bad times last night. Very scary. She's pretty much ok today. Probably not much in the way of updates for the next day or so.
