Sorry, posting from my phone. Not sure I'll be able to access any emails. She's pretty sharp. Probably only texts and I'll bet she's watching that. I suppose her friends are off limits???
No - I agree with you Puppy that he does look for this possible problem. I just think the focus has to be on the 180s and looking for what is wrong first.
So what if he found there was an EA/PA? Now what? For her to leave the EA/PA, doesn't she have to have something to come back to?
If he got caught snooping, what would he say? I asked my W once if she was thinking about anyone else. She said no. I accepted that. Had she felt I was spying/snooping, we'd just have less trust to work with between us.
Sorry for the multipule posts today. I'm in training at a new job and don't have much time for checking-in here but feel a desperate need to follow the wonderful advice.
Again, I can't begin to thank you all for your support, help and ideas. I'll check the cell records but not sure how much farther I can go.
Just this evening I asked if W would be available for a counseling appointment Friday afternoon and she agreed. Is this good or just cover? We're also going to attend church again as a family since I quit my 2nd job. I hope that's noy just for looks until my sons confirmation next month.
During the day I'm checking posts from my phone. Today was tough but you all are helping. Thanks again!
Even if it was a cover, it can lead to progress. I would guess that many people would love to get an easy agreement for MC because they're stuck with a W/H that says I don't even care to try. If she really hated you and like it that way, why would she agree?
Some things to consider with your first MC: - make sure your goal to save your marriage is her/his goal - ask how they will ensure it doesn't become an attack on her (or you) because then it may only make problems worse - ask what you are expected to do if you (or she) get too emotional or angry - ask if things said in MC can be ever used in court - show by action your best listening skills to your W; convince her that you are really trying to make BOTH of you happier - be willing to change any decision (ie quiting job) - if you start feeling the MC is saying, "wow, your M is screwed", get a new MC
I remember someone saying that they went home complaining about their MC session, but once at home, they felt desire which led to sex. Go figure...
No - I agree with you Puppy that he does look for this possible problem. I just think the focus has to be on the 180s and looking for what is wrong first.
So what if he found there was an EA/PA? Now what? For her to leave the EA/PA, doesn't she have to have something to come back to?
If he got caught snooping, what would he say? I asked my W once if she was thinking about anyone else. She said no. I accepted that. Had she felt I was spying/snooping, we'd just have less trust to work with between us.
I couldn't disagree with you more, OTMT. I'll take your points one at a time:
I just think the focus has to be on the 180s and looking for what is wrong first.
If a tree crashes thru the roof of your house, you need to first remove the tree before you begin to repair any damage (Tuppy). Yes, a betrayed spouse should simultaneously begin to work on making themselves the better option, but even THAT can be aided by good intel. For example, a keylogger can turn up what emotional needs a OM/OW might be filling of the wayward spouse, and the betrayed spouse can react to that.
So what if he found there was an EA/PA? Now what? For her to leave the EA/PA, doesn't she have to have something to come back to?
Now what? Now you move to protect yourself, and your family. You firewall your finances. You get an initial legal consultation, to better understand what your rights, responsibilities and vulnerabilities are. You begin to study every book you can get your hands on about affairs and infidelity, to know what it is you're dealing with. How can it NOT help to better understand the threat?
If he got caught snooping, what would he say?
So don't get caught. Seriously, if you do this right, you can get weeks if not MONTHS of good intel before, eventually, getting caught. However, if he DOES get caught, he should say "I was trying to protect myself (and, if appropriate), and our family." And/or "Everything I've done, I've done to try and fight for our marriage (and, if appropriate) and our family."
I asked my W once if she was thinking about anyone else. She said no. I accepted that.
"Big Bird" (sticking one's head in the sand) naivete is no way to fight for a marriage, in my opinion. You can't just ask the cheating spouse, because -- if they ARE cheating -- they will lie about it. CHEATERS LIE -- period. Just because you decided to accept it doesn't mean it's the best advice to give others.
This is what I tell people: determine if it (an affair) is a dealbreaker for you or not. If it IS, then gather the necessary evidence and do what you need to do. If it's NOT, and you think you can get past it, then either gather the necessary evidence, confront and expose and try to bust the affair and begin to work at reconciling your marriage . . . or . . . just assume they ARE having an affair, and operate from that assumption (I'm saying, if all the signs are there). In my experience, they are in the overwhelming majority of cases anyway (65-90%?), so this is the safest assumption.
Quote:
Had she felt I was spying/snooping, we'd just have less trust to work with between us.
Trust must be EARNED, O.T.M.T., and this goes to "reasonable cause." If you have reasonable cause to believe that your marriage and your family are being threatened by a PREDATOR (and that's what an OM/OW is, a PREDATOR), then not only do you have a RIGHT to investigate, I would contend that you have a RESPONSIBILITY -- esp. as a man (and yes, maybe that's chauvinistic, but whatever... I stand by it). It's your job to protect your family!
Ronald Reagan once famously said, about the Soviets, "Trust -- but verify." I think you enter a marriage making a mutual vow to each other to love, honor, cherish and trust, and that should be your stance until such time as you have reasonable cause to believe your marriage is being threatened. At that time, you should move immediately to determining the TRUTH of what's going on, and that must be done INDEPENDENTLY and not just by asking them. If they're NOT cheating, then great -- you've determined that they aren't. If they ARE, then you enter a phrase where trust must again be EARNED, after they've ended their affair, agreed to no-contact and full transparency, and shown themselves to be trustworthy again.
As you can tell, I feel very strongly about this, and it's not just my opinion. It's consistent with the advice and research of the best infidelity experts out there (Harley, Glass, Spring, Tuppy, McGraw, others) and even MWD herself advocates a keylogger in certain situations.
I just don't know where this whole "I asked her, and she said no, and so I decided to trust her" thing got started, but it's dangerous, with all due respect.
Just this evening I asked if W would be available for a counseling appointment Friday afternoon and she agreed. Is this good or just cover? We're also going to attend church again as a family since I quit my 2nd job. I hope that's noy just for looks until my sons confirmation next month.
It could be either, DCB -- impossible to say. This is only one example of (and I'm sorry to keep beating the same horse) why good intel is invaluable.
Just a quick example from my own sitch: i overheard my wife talking to her brother on the phone one day (I couldn't help overhearing, since I was eavesdropping ) , telling him that "I'm only going to marriage counseling so Mom and Dad can't say that I didn't try. I have no intention of working at it; we're DONE!" This brother-in-law knew his sister was having an affair, had had one himself (that led to the end of his marriage), and so she felt she could confide in him.
Now, would it affect my strategy, one way or another, if I knew the MC sessions were just a sham? Absolutely! For starters, it wasn't covered by our insurance, the sessions were very expensive, and we were under severe financial stress and couldn't afford the extra expenditure. If she were SERIOUS about trying to work at our issues, then you make it a priority and you juggle as needed -- "pebbles in a jar." But if not, I decided that there were better things to use our family's finances for. "End your affair, and I'd be happy to go to MC with you to discuss any and all issues in our marriage, including my own."
) , telling him that "I'm only going to marriage counseling so Mom and Dad can't say that I didn't try. I have no intention of working at it; we're DONE!" This brother-in-law knew his sister was having an affair, had had one himself (that led to the end of his marriage), and so she felt she could confide in him.