FIRST... an update... then I will try to respond to the explosion of posts
Spent the day with W. She asked me to come home early from work. This was about an hour after the R talk we had on the phone. I asked her "why" and she just said she wanted me around. I said ok and went home. We went out to lunch to her fav restaurant and then spent some time catching up on a few TV shows we had DVR'd. Lots of snuggle time on the couch. No R talk, no evidence of OM communication.
The night was more of the same after some good kid time.
Before I get into responding to all the posts from yesterday, I have to say that other than the sneaking around with her phone and possibly the lack of constant communication when she's out, nothing else about her behavior reminds me of the previous affair. She is still just as affectionate, we still ML regularly, and she still seems to want to be around me as much as always. During her affair none of that was true. She did the ILYBNILWY thing, pulled WAY back, cut off all physical affection and certainly no sex. So there are many reasons to believe that in some way, things may NOT be what they seem.
Anyway, tonight we are going to a concert and then I have work for the rest of the weekend. Sunday she is going out with a different group of GF's, ones that we are both good friends with. Sucks because they are usually too busy to get together like this. I would LOVE for them to be W's circle instead of these new people.
As I said, I will respond as much as I can to all your posts in the next few hours.
Ok, let me try to address what I believe is a slight debate about what to do about whatever may be going on with OM (for you puppy and jack); I will make a decision about what to do about that when the time comes. That decision is really the only thing I am 100% sure I am capable of making, and deciding when to make on my own. I've been there before. I've done it ALL before and know what worked for me. Of course, this is the 2nd time around (maybe) so obviously that changes things but I can and will still deal with it the way I think best serves my own well being and that of my marriage.
Now on to some specific responses:
To OT:
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Not sure how to take that... You KNOW I prefer directness. Shall I go away? Or, do you, as I had always thought, like to have my two (several) cents?
Anyway, I will assume that I'm appreciated, lol... Here are some thoughts:
You are, and always will be VERY appreciated
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(1) Read DB again, especially the earlier less desperate chapters. You are, after all, less desperate than most here.
Almost all the folks in these parts find the boards in the wee hours of the morning some sleepless night POST-bomb. Then, they start at the beginning of DB, trying stuff for Ms that are strained, when their Ms are in tatters. I always want to shout something like: Do not stop, do not glance at asking for what you want, proceed directly to LTR. Lol.
BUT YOU, my little exoskeletoned friend ARE NOT THERE. Your M is strained. The earlier DB techniques might well be useful to you now in ways that were inappropriate last time.
I love this analysis OT. I will indeed go back and read. I know I am not as desperate as most here, and I am truly thankful for that. It's not that my sitch is necessarily better, it's just that I think I MAY have a head start in where I need to go as a man to get right with myself. So, I know I am NOT in nearly as bad a place in my overall sitch as many are. I am also aware that I may soon be. I think my detection of all this comes so early because of my previous experience. Maybe that experience will help me really do the things I need to do to help get things back on track again. I am also not so stupid as to think that this experience I have will in any way shield me from the emotional roller coaster that I MAY be on again. I think I am proceeding as Jack sorta said, on the assumption that at the very least I have no idea what's going on and I need to, no matter what, build myself back up so I am as ready to either go forward into a stronger marriage OR weather the storm that may hit.
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2) I think emails might help you communicate with W. They don't let her make her little silencing comments to you (which you allow to silence you, which is why she uses them, but they are little toxic darts in your M).
I won't respond to the entire email advice. It's all VERY good and I may do that... except that my W barely uses/checks email at all, and especially hates having any meaningful communication via email, with me or anyone else. So I totally agree that email, or even a letter may be better but in the end, I think it would be face-to-face that rules the day. As for using her silencing comments, trust me, nothing much ever silences me They may give me pause, or redirect the convo somewhat, and I understand that my semi-accurate retelling of the convo's story may not convey that, but it's true.
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3) As your sex life is going well, this is one case in which I'm not convinced that W is having an EA/PA. But, *thin ice* no matter what. And, the lying is flatly NOT OK.
4) Just wondering, did W ever confess to a PA last time?
Yes, she did admit that it was a PA but never did fully admit to sex. I am 99% sure it happened though. She has directly denied it though simply based on opportunity.
As for not being convinced of the EA/PA, that makes 2 of us. Her other behavior CAN be explained by all the excuses she's given about my behavior but... I also agree BTW, that she's not acting very caring about my feelings when it comes to this IF it's not an EA/PA. Again, her excuse for that is that she's spent the past 3 years or so walking on egg shells, dealing with my feelings, making sure I don't get paranoid, etc, and she's had enough. Wrong of a loving wife to say, probably, but based on my behavior (read: slipping) over the past couple years, not entirely unfounded.
I also agree with the total openness things you've said. To a point, she's been open but it's like a quote from a commercial I saw last night "If you're lying about this and I found out about it, I wonder what you're lying about that I don't know about." Bottom line is that no amount of deception, for any reason, is going to be tolerated in my marriage if it's to last. Am I ready to throw down a gauntlet on that right now? No. I will work on my room in the house first, then address the house overall (marriage).
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It is time for you to get A LOT MORE HONEST with yourself and me about how YOUR choices are having negative consequences for your life, my life, our marriage, and our children."
I took this out of context but it was supposed to be me to my W. In effect, I did say that, almost word for word, in our convo yesterday and it did give her pause. She tried to defend herself weakly but not too much. That was the part I also asked her what positive came from this recent behavior that is worth all that risk/damage. I think that my ability to deliver those words calmly and actually backed with something closer to a loving tone rather than an accusatory one, really got through to her. Dunno if that will last.
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Have my fingers crossed that your phone chat shook things up a bit for her. I hope it doesn't take the life-wreck equivalent of a DUI to get her to look at herself again.
She's been there before (dui). I THOUGHT that was her rock bottom during all this mess before, and I suppose in hindsight, it was close to the turning point when we started getting back together.
I think the phone chat did shake her up. Hell, she asked me to come home and we spent some great time together afterwords so...
TO AMD:
Thanks my dear. I do remember you from years past and hope you're doing well. I will check up on ya, and to everyone else, I am being selfish right now. I WILL start to bump around the threads and try to help where I can. Actually helping people was one of the best things I ever got out of this place, as much as getting help myself.
So, it's on to another day. W seems a bit tired, down today. She seemed somewhat like that yesterday. I would love to think it's because she's realizing that she needs to end this whatever-it-is going on and that makes her sad because beyond ALL the other crap, I KNOW she really enjoys the company of people in the settings that these people go to.
I will update when I can but it's likely not much will happen since I am at work and then we are straight away to the concert.
"So, it's on to another day. W seems a bit tired, down today. She seemed somewhat like that yesterday. I would love to think it's because she's realizing that she needs to end this whatever-it-is going on and that makes her sad because beyond ALL the other crap, I KNOW she really enjoys the company of people in the settings that these people go to."
You have not slipped so much, you remain very compassionate indeed :-)
Folks, when I repeatedly say detachment is necessary for deep intimacy, it is this kind of understanding and compassion and insight that only detachment can give. GH SEES his W. He doesn't make her sadness *all about him.* He SEES her, her pain, what her feelings mean to her...
I want to clarify one statement I made that may get some attention:
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Bottom line is that no amount of deception, for any reason, is going to be tolerated in my marriage if it's to last. Am I ready to throw down a gauntlet on that right now? No. I will work on my room in the house first, then address the house overall (marriage).
I thought about this and want to be clear on my thinking. Right now, for honest reasons, or dishonest ones, my wife will link any attempt at me broaching this subject to my very controlling behavior over the past few months (maybe years?). Sure, it may be a "silencing barb" as OT says, but it's also true. In many ways, I let my controlling nature creep back in not just with her but with the boys too. It's manifested itself in many ways, both in specific incidents to persistent behavior. For example, I seem to ALWAYS find a way to be disappointed with her when she goes out, whether I know the people or not. I almost ALWAYS find a reason to be angry and even distrustful (go figure). She came home too late, she drank, was there other people there, why did she say "xxxx" or "xxxxx", etc, etc. To be fair, this has happened even when she doesn't do much/anything to encourage it. It's happened when I knew exactly where she was going, who she was with and how long they'd be out.
Even during the day I text/call her fairly regurlarly. Sure, I say it's for [fill in a reason] but to her it's checking up on her... keeping tabs... as if nothing ever changed. She's said as much recently.
Couple that with my expectations about how everything "should" be and you have a recipe for disaster.
So either way, I want to work to rid myself of my need to control and fully realize that I can only control myself. Then work on things with her from a much better place than I am at now. Whether she will be in a better place to work with me on them, I don't know. If she is in MLC, probably not. If she is having an affair, probably not, but those are two big "if's" that I am not at all prepared to accept right now.
You have not slipped so much, you remain very compassionate indeed :-)
Folks, when I repeatedly say detachment is necessary for deep intimacy, it is this kind of understanding and compassion and insight that only detachment can give. GH SEES his W. He doesn't make her sadness *all about him.* He SEES her, her pain, what her feelings mean to her...
Thanks OT. I think that's why I wasn't prepared to accept Jack's assertion that I had fallen. I suppose it looked like it at first. I really think I have maintained a lot of the changes I made back then but it's those key changes not stuck to, the ones I talked about in my last post, that have been my contribution to wherever we are in our M today.
I will admit though that detachment has come back in a BIG way for me just since being back here. I don't think I was nearly as detached over the past few years as I should have been, at least in terms of not trying to be a fixer all the time. Getting back to that seems to be helping a lot.
So either way, I want to work to rid myself of my need to control and fully realize that I can only control myself. Then work on things with her from a much better place than I am at now. Whether she will be in a better place to work with me on them, I don't know. If she is in MLC, probably not. If she is having an affair, probably not, but those are two big "if's" that I am not at all prepared to accept right now.
OK, but your not being prepared to accept those realities don't make them any less applicable if they're really going on.
As I've said many times on the Infidelity and Newcomers forums, I have personally never seen the "Little Bo-Peep" method work -- you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home," etc. Doesn't mean it doesn't -- I've just personally never seen it. But "Big Bird" (head in the sand) NEVER works, of that I am certain.
"Sometimes I'm paranoid because people really are against me." (Anonymous)
As I've said many times on the Infidelity and Newcomers forums, I have personally never seen the "Little Bo-Peep" method work -- you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home," etc. Doesn't mean it doesn't -- I've just personally never seen it. But "Big Bird" (head in the sand) NEVER works, of that I am certain. Puppy
Well, I am one example of it working. I do admit that it is very rare, and requires a very high level of commitment to some very counter-intuitive ideas but in the end, I believed it worked for me. I did DB through my W's previous affair, didn't ever lay down an ultimatum or demand it stop, and when the affair ended badly, as most of them do (from my time on the boards and life, I've seen it over and over again) we were able to build on MY changes, recognize hers and move forward. Sure, you can say that my current sitch may point to it somehow not working but I believe it did. So did all those who were there with me on the boards and watched the process play out. OT was there. She knows, and she was one of my harshest critics at times but in the end, I think IF you totally embrace the aspects of DB (and other philosophies) that suggest detachment, personal reflection/improvement, validation and compassion, you CAN make things better, better enough that your spouse recognizes their mistakes and sees the marriage as a viable thing again.
Also, I want to be clear. When I said I didn't "accept" the MLC thing or affair, I am not saying I don't think they are possible. It's just that I am not prepared to make a call on exactly what's happening, nor do I think it has ANY effect on what I need to do for myself. I am not just ignoring the issue with this friend and hoping it goes away, nor did I do that when I was 100% sure my wife was having an affair (she admitted it then). I am just choosing not to put a label on what may be happening. To be sure something is going on, and whatever it is isn't good for my marriage right now. That may be my wife just lashing out at what she sees as a controlling husband, and wanting some freedom, to a full-blown affair, to something else entirely. Accepting that those things are possible is different than moving on to calling it a name, MLC, a PA or whatever and then reacting to that label. Maybe I'm arguing semantics but it makes sense to me Once again, what's happening with my wife makes NO difference to me in terms of what I need to do for ME, and that's what I am here seeking advice on.
So like I said, if you read through my zillions of posts back in my previous incarnation here, you'll see that not confronting and truly working on yourself CAN and DOES work (as suggested in DB), or at least did for me. If, at the end of this current episode in my marriage, things go for the worse, you can come back and say I told ya so.
Lastly, and please, don't take this as me asking for you to not comment, but I am not here to debate or seek advice on how to handle my W's "affair" or whatever. IF you feel so strongly that no progress can be made while this issue is not resolved (or even named) then maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. I went through this debate before and 100% of the time it ended up being semi to outright nasty and I don't want that. I am open to differences of opinion just realize that my personal experience and success will guide me in that particular aspect of my sitch.
There may come a time when I reverse that stance but that's not likely to be anytime soon. I hope you don't take offense to that Puppy.
It's just that I am not prepared to make a call on exactly what's happening, nor do I think it has ANY effect on what I need to do for myself. I am not just ignoring the issue with this friend and hoping it goes away, nor did I do that when I was 100% sure my wife was having an affair (she admitted it then). I am just choosing not to put a label on what may be happening. To be sure something is going on, and whatever it is isn't good for my marriage right now. That may be my wife just lashing out at what she sees as a controlling husband, and wanting some freedom, to a full-blown affair, to something else entirely. Accepting that those things are possible is different than moving on to calling it a name, MLC, a PA or whatever and then reacting to that label. Maybe I'm arguing semantics but it makes sense to me Once again, what's happening with my wife makes NO difference to me in terms of what I need to do for ME, and that's what I am here seeking advice on.
Understood. Just trying to give you another perspective.
I just want to do the right thing. I just want to get back to my roots I re-grew my marriage from, that I planted here long ago. So do I just "detach" "GAL" "agree" and all that stuff to deal with this? Do I "let" her continue to go out with these people who I don't know, and apparently she has little interest in having meet me? Is it a big d--k move on my part to even think like I have the right to "let" her go out. Is that one of my problems? I am a bit of a controller. Do I trust her when she says no matter what she's NOT interested in seeing anyone else but that she does like going out with these people (including this guy) and sees nothing wrong with it?
I have to tell you, I have been close to calling it quits just on the fact that this FEELS so much like it did when she was having the affair but my whole being wants to believe it's not.
Grasshopper, this is where my advice and perspective was coming from. I'm certainly not "offended" (I have pretty thick skin), but the above -- from your initial post -- made it sound like you were looking for advice on how to best deal with your wife's recent change in behavior, not just work on yourself.
